help me make big, fat sounding drums with my limitations

[wing]

since my studio has been stripped down (had to sell a lot) it's been hard to do any recording at all. now i have my new analog console (wheatstone 3224) and trying to get my analog 1/2" R2R back up and running well. but until then, I'm using the DAW setup on my computer which is really basic and pretty limited. But I don't care. I want to make music. But as a drummer, I cannot accept weak drums and bass. I cannot have flat kicks and papery sounding snares. I want PUNCH! What I have to record with for now...

- Wheatstone 3224 console
- Shure SM57
- A couple audio technica dynamics
- A few no name dynamic mics
- Sennheiser MD504
- an AKG kick/bass mic i'm too lazy right now to go and get the series number of
- An audio technica cardioid condenser i borrowed from my brother.. forgot the series
- DAW = basic soundcard as well as some old (but still 24-bit) digital recording interface i picked up somewhere
- a little cash to spend on a good versatile mic that is great for drums (suggestions?)

it's not important to me as much as it used to be to have everything sound clean and whatever i used to have concern with. Remember how I used to complain my room is too open and with too many bouncy walls? Apparently that helps me get the sound I want in the end. I guess it's just easy to complain about what you don't have or what is wrong.

But now, all I want is to make my drums and bass sound BIG. I want them to hit you. But I also want them to still sound as clean as possible, with minimal distortion on cymbals. The last micing technique I believe I used was simply one SM57 as an overhead and surpisingly it came out really good and full sounding-- until I rocked out on a crash cymbal. I like beats with constant riding crash, but when I do that using the technique I last used, it obviously blurs everything out but the crash. I used to do a few other techniques along time ago that made it sound really good... I think a kick, snare, and overhead... but I forget.

With my limits, what would you suggest to help me make my drums sound really big and beautiful so they'll hit the listener (or at least myself)? I'm really tired of hearing these new computer based recordings (and even the analog ones) in these "nice" studios where the drums sound like paper or something. The drums don't hit me, and feel quiet, and just really dinky. I crave and need that fullness that is missing!

[brian beattie]

blue
try taking that at condensor, walk out in front of the drums while someone's playing like you play, listen for the spot where the kick sounds fat, and stick the mic right there. go back to your board and crank up the gain on that mic till it starts to distort just a bit. (or ALOT) For me, one mic is always the starting point for HUGE. You may have to move the mic around a bit, but that spot's there, (there's good spots all over the place) and if your board can crank up and distort, you've got all you need. add a bit of compression if needed. simple. elegant. Time tested and true.
brian

[MoreSpaceEcho]

i second that. i'd add a 57 on the side of the snare and probably something as an overhead. if you're fond of wailing on the ride, i'd try the overhead back by your head rather than actually right over the drums to lessen the cymbal wash somewhat.

i've always recorded my drums to tape and then dumped them into the computer, but recently i tried recording them straight to the computer and i have to say, they sounded pretty damn good. i ran them out to tape and back, and yeah, i like 'em better now, but you can certainly get some cool sounds straight to DAW. definitely "punchy" as there's no tape soaking up the transients. if they're TOO punchy and not full enough, you can always squash a submix and bring that back in under the regular tracks....

cheers,
-scott

[EasyGo]

Drum sound talk?

Remember how I used to complain my room is too open and with too many bouncy walls? Apparently that helps me get the sound I want in the end.

I think the room and mic placement and bigger factors than analog vs. digital.

I'd play around with that room in various stages of reflectiveness and treatment/deadening. Often, the big open reflective room is JUST THE THING. But a more a more deadened approach with close miking can yield a tighter, heavier sound. The close mics seem to demand some patience in placement.

I dig playing with the balance between the close kick and snare mics and the more open condenser/overhead/kit mic(s). I also like putting the condenser behind the kit/drummer to get more of the floor and snare and less of the cymbals.

And also as mentioned, distortion is a many splendored thing, and cool in moderation. Don't miss out on such fun as running snare mics through overdrive pedals, amps and speakers of any kind, live or after the fact.

Tee hee hee!

[I'm Painting Again]

i second starting with the ATCC for the kick, the drums gotta be pushing air infront of the mic thats the punch i like..i really like stereo large dia CC's as overheads..can you use yr tape machine to overdrive the drums a bit in its current condition?..mix that with the clean shound and it will be kinda big and punchy..pitch shift it slightly too..or set up an amp in the room that is feeding back the mics into the mics..that sounds great..

[stevemoss]

If you liked the sound of the SM57 as a room mic but disliked the overload of your cymbals, you might try "flagging" the cymbals. I'm stealing the terminology from filmmaking, where the idea is that to control where and how much light falls on a target, you put flags (stand-mounted; either cloth on a metal frame, or foam board/lightweight wood) in the light's path. Basically, obstruct the path between the troublesome cymbal and your microphone. If your room's like you say it is, you should still get plenty of signal from the cymbal, but not so much that your drums will get overwhelmed if you really lean into a crash.

[Electricide]

Here's something I've heard of but, alas, never tried.
Do your basic setup: kick, snare mic

Put two mics as far away from your drums as possible in your room. Condensors if possible, as low noise is good for this. Put them up in the corner, or out in front stereo x/y or whatever. As long as they are equally as far from the kit.
Track your drums.
Measure the distance from your snare/kick to the far mics.
Now, figuring sound travels at 1130 ft/sec.
and your DAW samples at 48(?)kHz per sec.,
determine how many samples away those mics are, and slide them forward in the mic by that amount, so the attack lands at the same time as your other close mics.

Let me know what that sounds like, because I want to know!

[Electricide]

Here's something I've heard of but, alas, never tried.
Do your basic setup: kick, snare mic

Put two mics as far away from your drums as possible in your room. Condensors if possible, as low noise is good for this. Put them up in the corner, or out in front stereo x/y or whatever. As long as they are equally as far from the kit.
Track your drums.
Measure the distance from your snare/kick to the far mics.
Now, figuring sound travels at 1130 ft/sec.
and your DAW samples at 48(?)kHz per sec.,
determine how many samples away those mics are, and slide them forward in the track by that amount, so the attack lands at the same time as your other close mics.

Let me know what that sounds like, because I want to know!

[Electricide]

oh yeah...flip the polarity of those far out mics to see if they sound better. THere may be phase problems when you introduce changes in time events!

[miamidevice]

Do not underestimate the awesome degrees of awesomeness that a sansamp and a squashed beyond all human recognition submix can provide. It will give you the boom bap.


m.

[xonlocust]

everything said so far have been great suggestions. i second the drum submix. buss all drum tracks and insert a stereo compressor. blend in compressed submix w/uncompressed signals.

something i just tried for the first time that i'm really hot on is delaying the ambient mics 20ms. all mixed sound, no direct. really opens the sound up and sounds awesome. kinda jesus lizard goat sounding.

[blameshifter]

i love recording drums. no other instrument can be mic'd so many ways.

try this:
-akg kick mic in kick (d112?)
-57 on snare top
-no name on snare bottom. group the top and bottom, and check phase.
-invest in a c1000! use it as overhead. put it behind the throne, facing towards the cymbals rather than over the cymbals. move it closer to the ride to get more ride.
-put one dynamic facing the drums, about 3-4 feet high, and about 3 feet away.
-put that 504 in another room, attached to the drum room, but not in line of sight of the drums. best would be a highly reflective bathroom. if theres a shower stall, put it in there. if not, face it towards a mirror or something reflective.

when mixing, roll off the low end on that 504. everything below 700hz, get rid off. put it all together. compress the overhead. it sounds awesome!

also, for added power, put some dynamics on those toms.

id love to hear it!

[Electricide]

Do everything that everybody else has recommended, and tell us how it sounds

[MoreSpaceEcho]

Here's something I've heard of but, alas, never tried.
Do your basic setup: kick, snare mic

Put two mics as far away from your drums as possible in your room. Condensors if possible, as low noise is good for this. Put them up in the corner, or out in front stereo x/y or whatever. As long as they are equally as far from the kit.
Track your drums.
Measure the distance from your snare/kick to the far mics.
Now, figuring sound travels at 1130 ft/sec.
and your DAW samples at 48(?)kHz per sec.,
determine how many samples away those mics are, and slide them forward in the track by that amount, so the attack lands at the same time as your other close mics.

Let me know what that sounds like, because I want to know!

i've tried that. to me it usually sounds weird. i've tried the 'lining yr close mics up with the overheads' thing too, and that's weird as well. both of these ideas can certainly make for a really punchy kick, which is good, but they also make for an odd sounding snare, which is not so good, IMO. well placed close and room mics give you a nice "kapow!" on the snare (depending on the room, obviously), lining the room mics up puts the "pow!" on top of the "ka". boy, that really sounds dumb but that's the best i can explain it.

but hey, try it and see whatcha think! takes all of 5 minutes to try. i don't think you need to worry about measuring the distance to the mics, etc, just look at them and line 'em up...