Songwriting

[shantishanti]

anybody know if this is a good message board for songwriting, or what some good resources, other boards might be?

i am seeking info, tips, feedback on songwriting, music composition, how to notate it, stuff like that (though not necessarily traditional music theory style writing)

in particular i would like to find out if there is some software out there that might be useful

[Electricide]

By the time people get to this board most of the songs have been written, it seems. And I'm not sure any of it is notated, other than "C, C, Em, Chorus, Dmaj7, G, bridge)etc, etc.
There is a music/mp3 forum here, and people ask for feedback about their songs.

Anyone else konw of a songwriter's meessageboard?

[bedbug]

I believe there's a songwriting forum on homerecording.com

[zoetrope]

I believe there's a songwriting forum on homerecording.com

Yup.
http://homerecording.com/bbs/forumdispl ... forumid=32

[inverseroom]

Well, there isn't much on songwriting here, but perhaps there should be. How many of you have found it dificult to approach a song in an interesting way because there aren't enough hooks (melodic, conceptual, lyrical, or otherwise) to hang your sonic hat on? Sometimes a song simply needs to be better, and it isn't always because the songwriter is no good--sometimes the songwriter is merely lazy. Is parrotting what they heard before, or relying too heavily on the song's handful of strengths. Should engineers know how to write songs, and offer this expertise to their clients, or is this outside the purview of the job?

[JGriffin]

Interesting questions, inverseroom. I have on occasion found myself stuck because a song isn't quite done; sometimes it's the client and sometimes it's me. I'm never quite sure how to steer the songwriter if it's a client, and damn I'm stuck if I'M the writer...I think, though, that the question of whether songwriting help is part of the engineer's job (it certainly is the producer's) depends on the situation--how tight the engineer is with the band, whether the band or the main writer in the band is open to writing suggestions. I've had songwriters in the studio so convinced they were the next Roger Waters or Paul McCartney that there was just no telling them anything--or they were so hung up on writing credit that if you made a suggestion they thought you wanted a piece of their publishing.

[silversound]

I've had songwriters in the studio so convinced they were the next Roger Waters or Paul McCartney that there was just no telling them anything--or they were so hung up on writing credit that if you made a suggestion they thought you wanted a piece of their publishing.

Been there!

[BobG]

You may want to check some of the local community colleges and music schools as they might have some offerings out of the mainstream of formal music training (although a course or 2 in standard music theory might give you a foundation from which to spread your wings on.

I studied music formally and trombone performance at a small college but luckily I was able to take a jazz history course, a jazz guitar class, and an arranging class not normally recommended to the standard Music Ed. students.

The Jazz History Course was phenomenal and really opened me up to looking at style, interpretation, and puttting songs together.

The Guitar Class was taught by a Berkley Guitar Grad (where I learned the concept of voice leading) which changed my guitar style forever plus opened my eyes in regards to Theory and arranging.

The Arranging class was taught by a retired producer/arranger for ABC in New York. He was the most demanding person I ever schooled under and played for. I ended up doing some $$$studio performance work for him as well as playing in some big bands along with him as well as one that he directed.

In other words, learning and making connections!! $$$

[YOUR KONG]

There's a yahoo group called Songwriter's Tipjar that sends out weekly/monthly emails (no discussion!) which I find tend gets my brain working (it's important to just try a new way of thinking once in a while, y'know?)

The Taxi newsletter (http://www.taxi.com/transmitter0308/) used to have some articles on songwriting every month. They've redesigned the newsletter since I was there last, but it looks like it's under "Tips" and "Tips2."

That's all I've found - mostly it seems like looking for info/discussion about songwriting on the internet is as risky as attending Angsty High School Student Open Mic Night.

[Randall]

do a search for NSAI

http://www.nashvillesongwriters.com/

[stillafool]

It doesn't exist. And most of the books on songwriting that purport to give you a glimpse into the elusive, unquantifiable, ineffable secrets of songwriting only show you how to write an uninspired, formulaic "catchy" song like Copacabana by Barry Manilow. I've got a book by sheila davis which I got at borders which I'd highly recommend against (if only because I see it alot). She divides the secret of the muse into left-and-right brain quanta (I ran this by my Dad who is an experimental psychologist, and he thought it was pretty amusing) -- a truly absurd book. Much better is Jimmy Webb's Tunesmith, which I still wouldn't recommend, primarily because Webb wrote a bunch of corny Glenn Campbell songs. Probably best of all the books on songwriting is Songwriters on Songwriting by Paul Zollo; this book consists of interviews given by everyone from Zappa to Dylan.

[Randall]

search a website called "the muses muse"

http://www.musesmuse.com/musenews.html

[blm15]

Should engineers know how to write songs, and offer this expertise to their clients, or is this outside the purview of the job?

I think it depends on what your niche may be. But, the definition of what an engineer is today, is quite a bit different then 20 years ago.
I think in most cases though, if you do audio for a living, an engineer/musician/producer with good people skills has a better chance of staying afloat than a straight engineer does..... although that may not be part of the "official" job description.
If you're in business long enough, people come back more so for your musical/production input then just the engineering end.
That plus a musician can become self sufficent by stretching out studio use.
Things like writing jingles, writing scores for industrial film.... and even helping songwriters with arrangements/chord structure etc.
Even a little musical experience I think is helpful.
blm15

[arneal]

Jimmy Webb may have had some of his songs "imprinted" by Glen Campbell, but don't let that keep you from learning from his body of work, including a couple of those recorded by Campbell, but not those versions if they are difficult for you to get past (I can sort of identify, though I like a couple of them in spite of the singer). "The Moon Is a Harsh Mistress" is a MF of a Webb song recorded by a few people including Joe Cocker. Besides, any friend of Lowell George's can't be all bad! : )

[BobG]

Don't totally blow-off Glenn Campbell either.

He was/is a great guitar player, songwriter, and popular country star with "Gobal Vision".

He found his niche, excelled in it, and made a great living from it, which is what we'd all like to do in this industry.

Pop Country may not be your favorite type of music but if a Pop Country Band came in to your studio with $5,000-$10,000 dollars to spend, you might be willing to temporarily have a change of heart while they got you off that potato and pepsi diet and help you add to your studio mic pre collection...........