Yoshimi, Kid A, Sophmore Slump etc...

[newguy12]

I'm pretty new to recording but I've recently aquired a few pieces of gear and would like to start putting a few things on tape. I really love the Flaming Lips, Grandaddy and Radiohead amongst others and was wondering how they go about making those amazing, elaborate records filled with interesting textures and other cool sounds. I reconize they obviously use a lot of different keyboards and rely on digital editing but how do you go about putting together those songs. I can't concieve someone writing out all the parts/noises and what not before entering the studio. Hence any insight into there recording/songwriting practices would be greatly appreciated.

[inverseroom]

On my favorite records these days, the songwriting and recording are inseparably integrated--the texture can't be taken out of the song, because, in part, it IS the song. I'm thinking of, say, Sigur Ros or (as you mentioned) Radiohead. That is, they aren't simply albums of good songs with interesting ornamentation, but fully articulated creative objects. Grandaddy sounds great, in part, because they produce their own records; the Lips too.

When I write a song (and I am no Lytle, Linkous, Yorke et al, but I don't have any other experience to compare to), I come up with a melody line, or a lyric, or a guitar riff, and accrete the production details in my head as I'm developing the rest of the song. That is--here will be the organ riff. Here will be the backwards guitar, here will be my son's electronic toy. I don't generally take notes on these things, but I remember them as I'm playing the guitar, and think about them when I play out (solo acoustic, mostly). Or, ideally, I write the whole song in the studio while recording it, the way I imagine painters work--but there is usually not much time for that.

The result, anyway, on the stuff I do that I'm most satisfied with, is a recording that sounds of a piece--a piece of (not to sound pretentious) recorded art, rather than just an audio diagram of a song. Not to say that merely recording a performance isn't a good thing--often, it's the best thing--but I think the records you're citing aren't done that way.

The studio is, of course, a musical instrument that you have to learn how to play, and I suppose it's like any other instrument in that you learn new ways to play it your whole life. I'm fairly new to recording but find it to be a bottomless well of inventive possibilities--there is always something new to try. So what I do is just try it all, until something sounds right.

John.

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[@?,*???&?]

Begin recording. Listen to records you like constantly during the process. Compare what you've recorded at every point.

What you've asked is almost as open-endedly ambiguous as having asked, "How do you make records?"

As a primer read Aaron Copeland's "What to listen for in music"

[justinf]

Inverse room: yes
jeff: well. . .

But that's cool. I think these guys do the same as many, which is to start with a song structure and lyric base, record it, and then fuck with it to whatever degree is necessary to get what you like. These parts are not premeditated. Don't fool yourself into another Frank Zappa.

[axial]

I want to add to this simply cos its an inspiring topic one of which is overlooked in the musician world quite often under the guise of "I wanna just get how it sounds live," to me when you say those words you have already undermined the projects potential, personally Radiohead is the best band in the world (to me) right now, Johny being an insanely efficient and creative musician, he runs his guitar setup through some weird analog patchbay thingy and makes every note from recorded versions happen and most of the times happen with more passion live, which I find fascinating.
sorry I get riled up and grammar goes out the window! My main point in trying to coax bands into being creative in the recording process is mainly cos I hear it in every recording I love, I don't care that Jimmy page didn't play all the parts live, I didn't care that the beatles didn't always have a tuba, but those layers bring the recording to a whole new level, ahhh I get super into the smallest nuances!

thats my rants...sorry

[AstroDan]

I obviously have no idea how the Lips went about creating the songs for Yoshimi, but as much cool stuff is in there, I could almost bet two hundred million dollars that they most likely started with basic songs (guitar, lyrics/vocals, possibly arrangements), layed down the basic fundamental tracks and went all out with the Memory Man, strings, synths, etc. That's just a guess, but I doubt that all those amazingly textured sonic layers were preconceived. The bands you mentioned happened to have access to cool co-producers, amazing toys and gear a plenty of luxurious studio time to play with it all. Which would rule.

Of course, you don't NEED all that good stuff to make a great recording, but I would imagine it's nice to have.

As far as creating from scratch, I've been having lots of fun laying down drum tracks with 'free form', generic arrangements before anything else and then putting accompaning instrumentation and vocals on top.

[signorMars]

i tend to write songs to tape, coming up with an idea, recording it and looping it, and then recording myself playing over it until i find a second part i like, and then i assemble the song that way. if the assembled parts sound too disjointed for the song, i will go back and replay them as a full take. this works really well for building deep textured songs.

another method i use is to come up with the chorus or main part or whatever and just keep adding sounds and tracks until i feel like anymore would destroy the song (good luck deciding when that is the case!) and that section becomes basically the climax of the song, and so i add and subtract parts to build the other sections of the song.

basically... turn on record and use whatever you can to make a ton of interesting sounds and textures, and then go back and edit and cut and paste and rerecord until it sounds right.

--ross ingram

[SLAG]

snip...

The studio is, of course, a musical instrument that you have to learn how to play, and I suppose it's like any other instrument in that you learn new ways to play it your whole life. I'm fairly new to recording but find it to be a bottomless well of inventive possibilities--there is always something new to try. So what I do is just try it all, until something sounds right.

God damn mind reader.

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[axial]

exactly, the first single off the new RH album "There There" has some kinda hand clap through the whole thing, and it seems to be eq'd so that it plays a very small yet I feel essential part of the rythm, and don't even get me started on the guitar on that song!

what is that feedback or a sax at the end?

[zoetrope]

filled with interesting textures

I think you're answering your own question here. Textures. Where do all those sonic textures come from. How do you get them? It's not the same as just a guitar and vocals. What's all that extra stuff. All those layers coming in a out of focus, swirling around. A lot is happening in the mixing phase. You need plenty of tracks to play with, and then experiment with bringing sounds in and out. I've had good luck with doing several ambient tracks and mixing them very very low so they add texture without being consciously there. It's the subtle things that make the difference.

But these are great bands where you have several very talented people merging into a great creative musical performance before the mixing even starts, so you're setting the bar pretty high. That seems to me the right place to set it.

[the velour fog]

i love textures, and usually pretty complicated chords...but when i get stuck and am feeling uncreative i do this little fun thing...that can actually turn out really great. i'll sit down and start playing a chord progression...usually something real simple (Am, G, C, F, etc.) and i just play the progression over and over, until a melody pops out in my head. then i start humming that. then i record that to one track...doesn't have to sound good...just play the progression, and hum. then i go back, and listen for other things to pop out. "oh...i didn't quite make that note when i was humming, but it sounds kind of cool." i make that into instrumentation, and add other layers. layers upon layers. (the nice thing about digital.) just keep listening and usually things will pop up. and when it feels over crowded i pull out the original guitar, and maybe another part or two and throw in the vocals. the song i thought was so unoriginal and uncreative has all of a sudden grown legs and feathers. and the song may follow a simple progression of chords...but you can't hear that anymore.

[penrithmatt]

textures.kinda says it all really.and good songs.

my wife and i have a little project that we aork on from time to time.between us we can play a bunch of stuff in a fairly okay kinda way,but my problem is,everybodies heard the same chords,in the same order a million times.i'm not a great player,but i can make it interesting to listen to by the way that it's put together.and i guess that's part of what makes those records cool,although i do find all the typewritter/teeth chatering drum skittering stuff on yoshimi a little distracting.

the most important thing is the song though.no amount of fancy production tricks is gonna help out a weak song.

[trash180]

Ok...the painter analogy is great.
If you're stuck staring at a blank canvas, put down some sort of grid or som'n. Like graph paper, yo. Nothing complicated, and nothing that carries too much information. Like a simple drum loop you may like. Try to stay away from too much harmonic content when picking your loop.

Now grab the nearest instrument and start recording stuff. Don't add too much information with each new instrument/noise making device. Or put down way too much information and sort out the tastey bits. Listen as you go. leave the origional loop, or take it out.

Be irreverent. Try to ruin it. Then fix it. Call it a song.

Then show it to your friends.