You weren't kidding!

general questions, comments and ideas about recording, audio, music, etc.
Dingo
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Re: You weren't kidding!

Post by Dingo » Wed May 14, 2003 1:31 pm

Consumerism is built on the premise that our lives would be that much better if we had that one thing that can fill the emptiness in our soul. But that is the myth about most things in life. I'm guilty of it when I buy into cultural trends and even guitar pedals, hoping that they'll fill the void.
Is that what they taught you in Iraq, Comrade? How dare you suggest that consuming is bad. If we stop consuming, the terrorists win. :twisted:

eflatminor
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Re: You weren't kidding!

Post by eflatminor » Wed May 14, 2003 1:36 pm

New and Improved:
I know the type you're talking about - all into the technical specs with no passion for the music itself. What a shame! I suspect there are folks like that in every craft. They loose sight of the whole idea behind the equipment.

By the way, I LOVE your comment about the stink of the music. That's just great. When you can smell the sweat off the bass player, you know you've captured the vibe!

Rec Head
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Re: You weren't kidding!

Post by Rec Head » Wed May 14, 2003 2:21 pm

Firstly, if you can't make people different from you or that you are jealous of then who can you make fun of?

Secondly, I'd like to think that if I could afford $6500 for anything the hole in my life would be that much closer to being filled. But then I'd still need the...

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soundguy
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Re: You weren't kidding!

Post by soundguy » Wed May 14, 2003 2:40 pm

Audiofiles are really the biggest contradiction there is.

for a bunch of people who pride themselves on knowing all this technical stuff, and knowing the specs of this that and the other thing, these people are guilty of buying the biggest bunch of horseshit marketed ever. $500 for an AC cord? Are you kidding me? Do these people who feel the need throw money away like this invest in stuff like balanced power for thier home theatre, or whatever? Do they build acoustically designed rooms to listen to their gear in? In the gross majority of cases, no. Instead they'll drop all this cash on the best speakers and stick them in a plaster box in NYC with uninsulated windows 12 feet about a busy street. They take a $500 power cable and plug it into an outlet which on the other side of the wall is wired with literally, 100 year old wire in some cities. But they'll sure tell you about the tech specs of the gear they have. Hey, johnny, let me tell you about the tech specs of the place you just stuck your audiophile crap. What a joke of pompus wannabe's some of these folks are, oh my god.

Its like, the dude is there bleeding to death, and your like, dude, you need stitches, let me drive you to the hospital. NONONO, I have this new high tech bandaid that I can use, and afterI have that on for a few minutes, I upgrade it to this other bandage....

dave

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supafuzz
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Re: You weren't kidding!

Post by supafuzz » Wed May 14, 2003 8:10 pm

yeah but it was a really good expresso....

rodeojones
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Re: You weren't kidding!

Post by rodeojones » Wed May 14, 2003 8:55 pm

i'll live in your closet and make you expresso for $75 a cup.

AstroDan
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Re: You weren't kidding!

Post by AstroDan » Wed May 14, 2003 9:55 pm

As an extension of Dave's post, if I were a trillionaire, I wouldn't mind spending 6.5 'G's IF they sounded like it. But I would also want my microphone wired with it, my mic cable, the pre, the compressor, etc...The record the audiophile is probably listening to through his 6 thousand dollar cable most likely was recorded with 89 cent wire; somewhere in the equation.

Maybe I'm just pissed because I haven't even had a radio in my car for the last year or so.

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wing
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Re: You weren't kidding!

Post by wing » Wed May 14, 2003 10:32 pm

guitarwhore wrote:i live in manhattan and pay $4500 a month for a studio apartment that's 150 square feet and I paid $75 for a cup of espresso this morning
so $10,000 for a pair of cables is not too expensive
WTF?!? you need to move! $75?? 150 sq feet??!??

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DUC
buyin' a studio
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Re: You weren't kidding!

Post by DUC » Wed May 14, 2003 11:41 pm

Yeah, move to Houston. I think the cost of living in Houston is the cheapest of anywhere in America.

Anyway... everything in moderation... and that too goes for audio. Some people need to upgrade their taste in music. Or buy a Q-Tip.

Professor
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Re: You weren't kidding!

Post by Professor » Thu May 15, 2003 1:20 am

Alright, I guess I have to jump in here for a moment, since I am a recording engineer and an audiophile, and I used to sell and install high-end home audio. $6500 for Nordost is kind of a rip since Cardas is much better, but honestly, that ain't the most expensive.
I worked for ListenUp Audio Video in Colorado for three and a half years ( www.listenup.com ) and during that time I installed home theaters ranging from around $5,000 to over $250,000 for single room systems. What was in the quarter million room? Well, the 60,000 Meridian DSP-8000 speakers ran for the front left and right while the lower cost DSP-6000 ran in the center, and surrounds. A $20,000 Meridian DVD player and 18,000 Surround Processor took care of the source material. The projector was a 30,000 Sony VPH-G90 shot onto an $8,000 Stewart screen. The whole room was acoustically treated with Dow/Corning acoustical treatments to the tune of around $20k. Do you think it sounded better than the $5-10k systems, of course.
Why would somebody buy something like that? Well if you run a billion dollar a year company and you love movies and music, that's what you get.
When I introduce people to hi-fi or introduce students to recording I encourage them to use A-B testing. Listen carefully and see if you can hear a difference. Once you hear a difference, make the visceral determination of which one you prefer. Then try to describe the difference. I've done listening tests in the studio with $100 mics and $1000 mics and $4000 mics, and gone through that exact process. It is absolutely true that sometimes the $100 mic is the right one for the sound, but if we are talking about a Shure 58 vs. an AKG C-414 vs. a Neumann U-67 on a female jazz singer, which do you think sounds better. Sure I could buy five SM-58s and still take a Carnival cruise for the cost of the U-67 but when money is no object and you can finally get the best sounding stuff with no compromises, you'll probably just buy all three mics - and then some.
If you want to have some real fun with hi-fi and experience the audiophile world, take a trip to your local hi-fi shop which is admittedly easier for some than for others. In NYC, Portland, Seattle, etc. that is easy, in other places it's hard. And don't think that Circuit City, Best Buy, Radio Shack, Magnolia, Audio King, Sound Track, Ultimate Electronics, or any of those are true hi-fi. I mean the littel boutique stores that have a $30k pair of speakers on display. Take along your favorite store bought CD and your best home-brew and listen on a $2,000 system and on a $20,000 system and then on their top system. Most of the sales staff will gladly let you play your stuff on whatever is setup. If you can't hear a difference then you have been turning that amp up too loud in the garage and you really should be more careful.
For some more fun, check out these manufacturers:
www.boulderamp.com - Boulder Amplifiers makes 1000 watt per channel pure class-A solid state amps in the $20-30k range. I've enjoyed many hours of hanging in their listening room listening to their $20,000 phono preamp or $18,000 DAC (being fed 24/96 from an Alesis Masterlink because nothing consumer would output 24/96).
www.wilsonaudio.com - Buy the top of the line Wilson Audio Modular Monitor (WAMM) speakers for $160,000 a pair and Dave Wilson flies to your house to set them up.
www.bwspeakers.com - Bowers & Wilkins invented the kevlar woofer and have put the speakers in Abbey Road for decades. They run from $250 a pair to $45,000 a pair.
www.cardas.com - Audio cables built around the Golden Ratio. Yeah, and they're from Bandon, OR.

This is getting to be quite a long post - sorry. For those curious, I own an Ayre Acoustics amp (V3) and preamp (K1) and B&W speakers for my two channel system and a Rotel Receiver (RSX-1065) and PMC speakers (TB-2 with an XP-1 sub), the two channel system uses mostly Cardas cable while the surround uses mostly Synergistic. Why all of the expensive stuff - well come on you don't pay retail when you work in the industry. And as for the recording studio I just finished building at the new job - 2 Yamaha DM-2000 consoles, ProTools HD-3, JBL LSR 32 speakers in 5.1 with 3 LSR 12p subs as the .1 channel and running with the left and right front speakers for stereo. The cabling is almost entirely Canare with a touch of Mogami around the digital connections. The mic collection ranges from the SM-57s through to the Neumann U-67s with lots in between. No, none of this is to show off or try to prove that mine is bigger than yours, it is just simply to point out that when you can get the good stuff, you should and there is a reason why fifty thousand dollar speakers exist - they are better than $40k speakers.
There are some wacky audiophiles out there as there are some wacky recording engineers (that swear up and down that you need all tube, all analog tape for recording perhaps?) and then there is the ocassional audiophile/recording engineer who justs loves every end of the recording process.

-Jeremy

comfortstarr
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Re: You weren't kidding!

Post by comfortstarr » Thu May 15, 2003 6:03 am

I know I'm going to get berated for this, but...

It's wrong for someone to spend $6500 for stereo cables. Just as it's wrong to make 100 mil in a year. There's too much poverty and fucked up living situations in the US alone to excuse such a choice. It's a matter of priority. The guy on the way to the store to drop $6500 is walking by (edit) tenements and homeless people, but his mind is in tunnel mode: "Man, these are going to make "Point of No Return" sound so sweeet. And I'm finally going to hear the breathiness of the oboe's in the New World Symphony..." I say: wake up idiot. I long for this dude to get rolled on his way home.

Now excuse me comrades, I have some organizing to do.

eflatminor wrote:There should be no reason to make fun of audiophiles - most of them are nothing more than fanatical music lovers with a great respect for the "original master tapes". They just hate ANY coloration of the signal as was determined to be proper by the musicians and engineers. What we record, they hold sacred. That's beats the hell out of the attitude of most music buyers I say.

eflatminor
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Re: You weren't kidding!

Post by eflatminor » Thu May 15, 2003 7:26 am

Comfortstarr
Yea, you are going to get berated! Seriously, what you're avocating implies that you support pure socialism, which is ok but go ahead and say that. If you're not making a case for 'everybody should have exactly the same of everything' then your argument is flawed because it would be impossible to know where to draw the line. If you think $6500 for cable is obscene but $25 is not, the guy living in the streets may think spending ANYTHING on a piece of wire is ridiculous when he hasn't eaten today. If we fall into that proverbial hole, then none of us should even have a cassette four track.

It's all relative I say. If you have the resources to spend ludicrious amounts of money, it's your right to do so, in America anyway. You may not like it that a person makes $100mill per year but to put this in perspective, remember that the rest of the world thinks what YOU have is over the top. Don't think so? Remember this fact: America makes up 6% of the world's population but controls over 90% of the world's wealth. If you're in America, you have it made, comparitively speaking.

comfortstarr
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Re: You weren't kidding!

Post by comfortstarr » Thu May 15, 2003 8:37 am

Of course you're right. The line is the hard part. But, to say that the obsenity of a $6500 wire is relative is an over simplification. $6500 IS different than $25 even if I have no money. I think there are certain extremes of consumerism and greed that should be called to task. And I don't think they can be defended by "it's a free market" jingoism. It may be you're right to spend ludicrious money, but I beleive it makes you of dubious moral character to make such a decision.

I try not to advocate for socialism or socialist policy, but I do advocate for personal responsibility.

And eflatominor, I don't mean you when I say "you." I should've said "one."

By the by, did anyone seet he Distressor guys rant on gun control on Gearsluts? Yikes, I found it distressing. (How about that for a derailing comment?).
eflatminor wrote:Comfortstarr
Yea, you are going to get berated! Seriously, what you're avocating implies that you support pure socialism, which is ok but go ahead and say that. If you're not making a case for 'everybody should have exactly the same of everything' then your argument is flawed because it would be impossible to know where to draw the line. If you think $6500 for cable is obscene but $25 is not, the guy living in the streets may think spending ANYTHING on a piece of wire is ridiculous when he hasn't eaten today. If we fall into that proverbial hole, then none of us should even have a cassette four track.

It's all relative I say. If you have the resources to spend ludicrious amounts of money, it's your right to do so, in America anyway. You may not like it that a person makes $100mill per year but to put this in perspective, remember that the rest of the world thinks what YOU have is over the top. Don't think so? Remember this fact: America makes up 6% of the world's population but controls over 90% of the world's wealth. If you're in America, you have it made, comparitively speaking.

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eeldip
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Re: You weren't kidding!

Post by eeldip » Thu May 15, 2003 9:22 am

gotta side with comfortstarr here.

there is no excuse for buying a $6500 cable for your home theatre. a $6500 mic for a pro studio? fine. at least there is something like $6500 worth of work in a mic, and the purchase is for a business, and it has some sort of resale value.

but buying a $6500 cable is a sign that something is wrong.

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DUC
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Re: You weren't kidding!

Post by DUC » Thu May 15, 2003 10:12 am

You can't say that it is wrong to make lots of money. If you put in work, you expect to get something out of it. The only thing that is wrong is being greedy and being a glutton.

For instance, you could use the money for the security of your family, or the betterment of the community. It is better to give from a free heart, so that your motives can remain pure, but a forced hand can lead to resentment and thievery when the government or other entities take money from you that they did not work for.

And not only work, but innovative ideas are also rewarded. That is the business that we, as artists, are in.

Remember, the redistribution of wealth can be said for the class system that Stalin disliked when he saw that the Ukrainian farms had more than anyone else. So he forced a famine that killed 15 million people. Families were forced to eat their children. Ironic, a famine in a farming country.

It is also wrong to envy and steal, as it is to be a glutton. Can we be content?

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