You weren't kidding!

general questions, comments and ideas about recording, audio, music, etc.
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bedbug
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Re: You weren't kidding!

Post by bedbug » Thu May 15, 2003 10:35 am

Duc wrote:You can't say that it is wrong to make lots of money. If you put in work, you expect to get something out of it.
I don't think anyone's saying that. It's just that - $6500 cables? Come fv<king on!
Duc wrote: The only thing that is wrong is being greedy and being a glutton.

Enter the $6500 cables

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eeldip
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Re: You weren't kidding!

Post by eeldip » Thu May 15, 2003 10:39 am

also,

stalin starved the ukranians for a variety of reasons, and i would say that the last one on the list was the productiveness of ukranian farms...

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DUC
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Re: You weren't kidding!

Post by DUC » Thu May 15, 2003 11:02 am

I feel more of a sadness for someone forking over that much for a damned cable, than I feel madness. He's forsaken lots of things before audio, obviously. My only concern is when other people feel so outraged that they want to limit someone's rights. Surely, that person must have a gaping hole in their soul that they would want to fill it up with something that makes no sense to the rest of us. Pitty.

Also, consider this. You were an inventor that created the best cable ever imagined, but you also needed a patron to finance this dream/endeavor. If you do find someone, then what is wrong? It's easy to quickly judge. But again, I would never spend more that $25 on a cable. Am I still being a glutton? Pitty us both.

On the Stalin thing, I would like to know what history books you were reading. But I also know that reporters in America denied the existence of a famine because they thought much about socialism. That is until the dead cried out from their graves. Pol Pot also wanted to control the class system for the betterment of Cambodia. Socialism and communism is ironically about empowering the people... i.e. they voted themselves into slavery.

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eeldip
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Re: You weren't kidding!

Post by eeldip » Thu May 15, 2003 11:06 am

how about ukranian nationalism?

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DUC
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Re: You weren't kidding!

Post by DUC » Thu May 15, 2003 11:16 am

I thought the right to determine your own existence was a given? It had more to do with the rich farm lands, however. I guess it depends on the history books we both read. So I'll give you points for differing source material. Much respect.

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eeldip
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Re: You weren't kidding!

Post by eeldip » Thu May 15, 2003 11:20 am

what it comes down to is not the ideas themselves, but how they are applied.

in cambodia socialism and communism were a total disaster. here in the US they gave us:

the weekend, overtime pay, social security, building codes, urban planning, workers comp, libraries, museums, consumer protection laws, so on and so forth.

if you look at the american communist platforms of the early 20th century, they dont look that radical at all.... pretty sensible really.

so i can see how when someone brings up socialism you get bitter and i get happy. i see weekends, you see reeducation camps.

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DUC
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Re: You weren't kidding!

Post by DUC » Thu May 15, 2003 11:23 am

Ha ha..., Eeldip!

I'll have to light a cigar in honor of this thread. It has been civil.

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Re: You weren't kidding!

Post by timbaier » Thu May 15, 2003 11:37 am

Hasn't anyone ever heard of the "Law of Diminishing Returns"?? Price vs value is never a direct relationship, and the further up you ride on that curve, the less likely you are to have a grip on reality, or at least a view of "the big picture". Based on that, a guy who spends $6500 on cable is a moron, plain and simple. Its not socialism, its idiocy. Sadly enough, the world is full of idiots.

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Re: You weren't kidding!

Post by Professor » Thu May 15, 2003 11:46 am

Wow, and then it turned political. I'll point out a couple things on the person who can spend $6500 on a cable:
1. He isn't starving his family for the audio stuff the way alcoholics, drug addicts and compulsive gamblers might. He probably has several homes and several cars etc. long before he has the amps and speakers that demand the high-end cable.
2. He(she) has already paid taxes on the money earned - and people keep telling us that those taxes are used to help the homeless, idigent, and even the drug addicts and alcoholics.
3. The expensive cables incur sales tax which is meant to support social programs. The price also pays the salesman and the store who then pay taxes and buy things with their profit. It also pays the manufacturer who pays his employees and suppliers which might include poorer workers in developing countries, and again there are taxes collected at every step along the way.
4. Rich people give more of their money away willingly than any of us do. I am working in a studio that was built from a $600,000 grant given by an individual and that was only a small portion of the millions the guy gives away annually. Carnegie built libraries all across the country, Mellon built universities, and the lists go on and on. I attended a music conservatory built from about $20-million from an anonymous donor.

So if you want support for social programs, I would argue that the $6500 cable purchase will fund more programs than the one dollar connector at Radio Shack - about 6500 times more. And if that same man were rolled in the street for his 6500 as some might hope - how much crack or meth would that buy and how many drug dealers will be buying their $6500 gold chains?

-Jeremy

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DeluxeReverb
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Re: You weren't kidding!

Post by DeluxeReverb » Thu May 15, 2003 11:55 am

Lastly, Bush got elected because his daddy's supreme court saw to it that the opinion of the majority of the people didn't mean shit

William Rehnquist: President Nixon nominated him to the Supreme Court, and he took his seat as an Associate Justice on January 7, 1972

Ruth Bader Ginsburg: Took her oath of office August 10, 1993 as Associate Justice of the Supreme Court of the United States, after having been nominated by President Clinton.

Stephen Breyer: Associate Justice, Supreme Court of the United States, August 3, 1994 (nominated by President Clinton)

John Paul Stevens: President Ford nominated him as an Associate Justice of the Supreme Court, and he took his seat December 19, 1975.

Sandra Day O'Connor: President Reagan nominated her as an Associate Justice of the Supreme Court, and she took her seat September 25, 1981

Antonin Scalia: President Reagan nominated him to the Supreme Court and he took his seat September 26, 1986

Anthony M. Kennedy: President Reagan nominated him to the Supreme Court, and he took his seat February 18, 1988

David Hackett Souter: President Bush nominated him to the Supreme Court, where he took his seat on October 9, 1990.

Clarence Thomas:President Bush nominated him as an Associate Justice of the Supreme Court and he took his seat October 23, 1991.

One Nixon, One Ford, Three Reagan, Two Clinton and Two Bush. There goes that "argument"...again.
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Professor
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Re: You weren't kidding!

Post by Professor » Thu May 15, 2003 12:12 pm

Bravo on the Supreme court info, it's nice to se the facts once in a while.

I always just point out to people that we don't live in a democracy, we live in a republic with a representative government and the electoral college was laid out in the constitution for exactly these reasons. And if the numbers fell the other way and Gore had more electoral votes and fewer popular votes - do you think he would have complained?

On the other hand, the facts you show do put six out of nine into their seats by republicans, and it's a damn good thing.

-Jeremy

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bedbug
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Re: You weren't kidding!

Post by bedbug » Thu May 15, 2003 12:12 pm

DeluxeReverb wrote:
One Nixon, One Ford, Three Reagan, Two Clinton and Two Bush. There goes that "argument"...again.
Yeah - 2 democrat nominations and 7 republican ones. What was wrong with that "argument" again?

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bedbug
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Re: You weren't kidding!

Post by bedbug » Thu May 15, 2003 12:21 pm

Professor wrote:On the other hand, the facts you show do put six out of nine into their seats by republicans,
-Jeremy
Umm, I counted 7 republican ... who are the three put into the seats by democrats?
Professor wrote: by republicans and it's a damn good thing.
-Jeremy
Yeah, because or last democratic president gave us almost a decade of peace and prosperity. What hell!

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Re: You weren't kidding!

Post by dwelle » Thu May 15, 2003 12:37 pm

audiophiles to partisanship.....

music to politics.....

blah blah blah blah....

welcome to the world of creative RECORDING.

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DeafinONEear
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Re: You weren't kidding!

Post by DeafinONEear » Thu May 15, 2003 12:39 pm

Professor wrote:When I introduce people to hi-fi or introduce students to recording I encourage them to use A-B testing. Listen carefully and see if you can hear a difference.

Ahh, but there's the catch-- you're not taking psychology into the equation! The many times people may be blinded by the fact that they had just spent so much time and/or money on something that they fail to be objective when auditioning the material. In an "A-B" test, you still now which is which and are not able to objectify your response. The only true way to gauge the performance of a device is through a true, double-blind ABX Comparator, a device which had been discontinued long ago (I truely belive that the HiFi/expensive cable/etc. intustries had something to do with this... or the fact that people who do spend (unjustified) exorbinant amounts of money on gear don't want to know that thier money has been squandered). A double blind test is, to me, the only way that you can take the psychological factors out of the equation and have a truely objective listening test.
It's interesting-- a couple years back we did an ABX here at a gathering where we compared a recording done on a DAT and the same recording put through ATRAC 4, ABX'd and played through an AudioMedia III card (actually it was three samples-- bird song, the ocean and music.). It turned out that the highest score anyone was able to get, in terms of correctly identifying the DAT versions against the ATRAC versions was 68%. And that was the high.
Now there are alot of people that swear up and down that they can hear the difference between a DAT and a minidisc, and I submit that there are times when it becomes apparent, but I wonder how many of those people have taken the element of prior knowledge out of the equation and actually based thier descisions purely on listening. I don't think you can do it if actually know which sound source is which-- it's natural for the brain to make preconceptions... this is what makes us humans.
Now I also believe that the same holds true for alot of the HiFi world. If you go and spend $6,500 on a cable, without knowing exactly how it differentiates between a normal cable, you're going to hear $6,500 worth of your hard earned cash of a difference. When people make high claims about the "world of difference" that one device brings to the world, you must realize that this is a subjective opinion, one that has no merits in the real, scientific world.
Without an exact signaling, or measuring, as to what has been changed, I don't think that a claim of excellence, nor a large price tag, is a valid reason to justify such a purchase. Keep in mind that we, as humans, are succeptible to flaws in our logic (it's just human nature) and we, as listeners and as engineers, can be led just as far as the village idiot. I see this, too, rearing it's head in the pro audio world-- who here hasn't heard a claim of "use this tube to warm up your digital signal" or "use this all-discreet electronic device to keep your signal path pure." I mean, these are claims not unlike "if you die on this day, when the Hale Bopp comet passes, you will be taken away on a space ship and transported to heaven,"-- religous based faith appeals. Perhaps if I were to see the data provided about how the signal was trated to a foot massage and then had it's grapes peeled for it and then given unlimited sex and peanut butter all night long, then I could justify spending that much on a cable, but until you show me that the signal transfer is 45,000% better, I have to laugh in the face of everyone that does pay for a cars-worth of cable, or a house's-worth of an audio system. PUH-LEEEZ!
Look, this isn't a religion-- engineering is a science. Twisting knobs and buying high priced gear does not an audiophile nor engineer make. Actual real-world proof (data) about what does what is the only thing that can stand up in this world, not faith-based claims. Perhaps it makes people happy to spend hundereds of thousands of dollars on thier listening equipment, but I think it's a bunch of unjustified cock and balls and I don't fall for it.

open for flames.

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