to click or not to click?

[oxfist]

i've got a couple tunes written for guitar, and now its time to record them and add some rhythm tracks. judging from other posts, this is about the hardest thing that one can do... but, i know there's folks out there that have done this. so tell me, how did you do it? is it a click thing? or is it just playing the rhythm so many times that you get all of the idiosyncracies of the guitar performance down pat? i'm all ears!

[The Gibbon]

If you can play to a click, by all means do!.....if you can't play to a click....huh...it would be to your advantage to....with a click to reference you have alot of tools to acess later like tempo dependent delay, reverb times, ease of tracking rhythm later, etc.....all kinds of things to make a better recording. But then again, some folks hate to use a click....whatever floats your boat.

[oxfist]

i know, it seems like a silly question. but, i'm still very new to all this.

i am totally willing to learn how to play to a click (still not sure if i play with it, or chase it.. help?). i'm just wondering if there are any other tried and true methods that folks have used to get to the next step.

so far, in my experience doing this a little bit, i've found that playing heavily effected guitar with echo on it is very hard to go back and layer over.

so should i start with a click and clean guitar, then overdub what i want over that later? i'm running cool edit, so there's a built in click and mini-drum machine, but i have no idea what time signatures i'm in (anybody got help with that?)

if it seems like i am thinking aloud, its probably because i'm not (thinking. that is).

i understand your frustration. please talk slow.

[The Gibbon]

You need to find out how many BPM (Beats per minute) the piece is in...if you know how to count beats...try counting the number of beats in 15 seconds...multiply by 4 to get approximately the proper BPM...set your click at whatever that BPM number is..120...100..whatever and see how close you are.....play along and adjust it up or down 'till it feels right and there you go.

[trashy]

As far as the time signature is concerned, you'll have to count that out. I'd bet my left one that you are in either 4/4 or 3/4, especially since you don't know much about time signatures (which is, in my book, a good thing, 'cause then you're not going to screw up a song just to prove you know about time signatures).

To figure it out, play along while you count. The song begins (of course) on "1". Count like this: "1-2-3-4-1-2-3-4-1-2-3-4-1-2-3-4". Are you back at the beginning? Did the "1"s fall on the "one" beat (you should here a bass drum thump in your head on these beats)? Good! You're in 4/4; welcome to rock!!! If not, count like this: "1-2-3-1-2-3-1-2-3-1-2-3". Again, did you end up back at the beginning of the phrase? Did the "1"s hit at the same time as your imaginary friend the bass drum? Good! You're in 3/4; grab a girl and waltz! If neither of these things worked then you either messed up, or you're in some weird time signature.

I hope this is what you were asking for in your post, and I hope it helps a little. Maybe someone knows a better way for learners to hear time signatures, but this was how I learned.

By the way, play with your metronome, don't chase it. Do you ever play with people? If you've got very little experience doing that then I guarantee you will not be able to play along with a click track. Sorry if this is not what you want to hear, but I've always found this to be true. But hell, maybe you're the exception...

Also, you've asked a very good question about effecting before or after you've tracked. There's good points to be said about each, and everyone here probably has an opinion. But either way, if you're having problems with your effected guitar muddying up the track, then you need to go back and rerecord the guitar using a different mic, mic setup, preamp, guitar, amp, tone setting, pedal setting, or something. Yeah, it kinda sucks, but if you've put down a sound that can't mesh with any other sounds, you need to fix that sound. As soon as you start doing this, you will get better recordings. Eventually- if you do this enough- you will train your ear to hear what sounds will sound good with other sounds. I promise.

Good luck! Post the results!

[The Gibbon]

Just to plant a seed so you can see the value of using a click, knowing your time signature and BPM....you can calculate the proper delay in milleseconds of a 1/4 note using 60,000/BPM. Using that number..
Multiply by .5= 1/8 note
Multiply by .25= 1/16 note
Multiply by .666= 1/4 note triplets
Multiply by .333= 1/8 note triplets
It's cool as you can add rhythms to an existing track, make delays in time, reverbs in time, etc....try it and be creative!

[Flight Feathers]

you know, for years i've been recording to a click track. my situation was pretty similar to yours - i was writing songs on guitar, and wanted to layer on drums and other stuff later. i would play acoustic guitar to the click, layer on vocals, then add all the other stuff with the song structure in place. only very recently have i almost totally abandoned the click. i find songs feel more natural without the click, altough sometimes i still use it, depending on the feel of the song. so i guess my answer is depends on the song. but you should definitely be able to play to a click. if you can't, practice until you can, it will only make you a better musician.

good luck
ayan

[oxfist]

alright, i'm starting to get it!

1). record the acoustic track as close to perfect as i can get it.
2). listen back to it and determine the BPM and measure
3). re-record the track to the click
4). start building from there.
5). then, add crazy effects and other studio trickery.

is that about it?
am i missing a major component somewhere?
will computer latency be a hendrance in step 4?
sorry, i don't mean to get ahead.
but, its going through the noodle so i thought
i should ask. i don't want anything to blame
but my lazy, shiftless fingers.

thanks...

[felix]

Latency should not be a prob...for example just make sure that the drummer is getting his self monitoring signal from a real time source rather than one that is traveling thorugh two sets of converters.

[Al]

Clicks are for dicks!!

[sad iron]

I've always found it easiest to play to an approximation of what you think the drum part will be. So if you have access to a midi drum machine, then try and find a loop that gives you a groove that feels good. This has a lot to do with tempo as well. Tempo is very important. So spend some time finding the BPM that's right for your song. Or record a few versions @ different BPM and then decide which feels better. You want to have a pocket as natural and easy as you can get it without the benefit of other musicians to help you lay it down.

So if you can, find a drum loop (or create one) that feels good with the song and then play the song at varying tempos with the loop until you feel yourself lock in with it. Then hit the red button.

[kavish]

One thing to watch out for is settling on a starting BPM and then doing the whole song at that speed. Slight tempo variations(talking about just a few BPMs variation, usually, such as a tempo increase going into a chorus, then back down into the next verse, or a gradual tempo increase as the song reaches a climax) sound more natural than an unvarying robotic beat(unless you're doing dance music).
I have the client play thru the song while I figure the BPMs of each section of the song. If you have a drum machine, you can create a click track to play to with tempo variations to suit the song, so you end up with a perfectly timed track, but without a robotic, monotonous tempo.

[joeysimms]

so tell me, how did you do it?

You call some friends, friends who play, and track some rhythm stuff live.

You work on it and have fun. You have them listen to the guitar parts you have in mind to add, if you're not tracking them live. Sometimes, if you have a heavily effected guitar track in mind, it's better to have everything else playing to it. Think T-REX and some of that vibrato rhythm. Tony Visconi (sp?) said that more often than not, he would track Bolan's guitar with the effects, because it drove the tune.

If you don't have friends who can help, then go back to some of the other responses above.

[oxfist]

this is all really great input, i'd love to hear more.
i'm starting another post in the computer section about no latency monitoring, if you have input on that please post there, too!