Gear Elitism and Reactionary Guilt.

[joel hamilton]

I fucking bust my ass every single day, and I own some really nice gear.

I dont care who hates on me for having nice gear, they are welcome to come record with me and get the benefit of my eating shit for years, and not buying new sneakers, and wearing the same T shirt for 10 years to get a neumann, or a tape machine, or a good pre or whatever.

I agree with dave, wholeheartedly in his first post.

I would also say that if you dant want to learn from experience, dont listen to my "old fuddy duddy" ass and get something good the first time instead of making the same mistakes I did: buying ten million different crappy things, convinced that I could get a good sound out of it, rather than get 2 really nice things.

This is not a "neve club" that you belong to. Everyone that owns nice gear had to buy it. There is no elitist prerequisite for owning this shit.

SAVING YOUR MONEY until you have enough to buy a well designed piece of audio equipment with any name on it is the only way to qualify for this "elitist club."

What if dale earnheart drove an aries K?. what if Jeter wore fucked up, cheap ass sneakers and used an inferior bat?

Yes they would still be amazing atheletes, but not performing to their potential because their EQUIPMENT was limiting their abilities.

Figure it out....

Gear is not music. Gear is gear. good , bad, neato, boring, clean, dirty... but gear.

[concubine]

The "anything less is a waste of $$" thing does come up, and if people would explain why they feel that way, as you did in reference to budget mic-pres, there would be alot less resentment or whatever. But, when people aren't taken seriously because they don't have the "best sounding" shit, or they use a friggin behringer, that sucks and goes 100% against what TapeOp is about. There's a lot of cool stuff with lots o' character and charm recorded on crappy gear, and thats all a lot of people around here can afford. But, I'm sure they'd love to work with the good stuff if they could.

i couldn't have said it better myself. that really sums up what needs to be said on this topic.

[I'm Painting Again]

IYes they would still be amazing atheletes, but not performing to their potential because their EQUIPMENT was limiting their abilities.

It would not hinder abilities as much as It would just make it harder to get sounds. I have made/heard awesome recordings done with next to no gear.

[joeysimms]

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[I'm Painting Again]

SpeakAndSpellInspacE Or LackThere ove.


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[Bear]

I can see this argument from both ends. On one hand, I can understand why people say it's better to save your money for superior equipment, because it'll last you a hell of a lot longer. You'll be using that same kick ass mic for years to come. But it isn't always that simple. I'll use myself as an example:

When it comes to money that I can blow on things other than necessities, I've had less than $100 to spend this past month. And that's about how it is year-round. The only time I can buy semi-decent equipment is if I sell a painting or find an odd job that'll give me a lump some. Even then, I might get four-hundred bucks. So when I ask for advice on picking up a decent mic for under $400 and someone says "This $2000 mic is a lot better in the long run," I already know that. Of course it's gonna be better in the long run. But it might be a few years before I have that kind of money, and scrimping and saving for years on end without ever making "fun" purchases (clothing, going out, going to shows, etc.) is a hell of a lot of effort for one mic. If I ever land a better job, I'm sure my outlook will change. If it means saving for four months so I can get a kick-ass pre instead of buying a semi-decent one next paycheck, hell yeah I'll save. But at the moment that's not really an option.

And I agree with those who said it's more of a snobbery issue when people act as if good music can't be made on anything but the best equipment. Some of my favorite albums are lo-fi as hell. But I don't listen to those album's because they were recorded on nice stuff. I listen to them because they're good songs. And some people will argue: "wouldn't you like those said albums better if they were recorded on great equipment?" No. Not necessarily.

[I'm Painting Again]

And I agree with those who said it's more of a snobbery issue when people act as if good music can't be made on anything but the best equipment. Some of my favorite albums are lo-fi as hell. But I don't listen to those album's because they were recorded on nice stuff. I listen to them because they're good songs. And some people will argue: "wouldn't you like those said albums better if they were recorded on great equipment?" No. Not necessarily.

Yes. A. A.nd I will add that not only does the universes's cannon of "lo-fi" recordings contain enjoyable, often deeply moving songs but the sonics can be quite interesting, often equally as moving.

[Auxillary]

This strikes me as one of those threads that is destined to leads to many pages, and help no on in the end. Bravo, i shall quite surely demonstrate my conversation snobbery right now with my disgust in sharing of negativity rather than knowledge!

On the otherhand, that isnt mocking someone, I have recently purchase some REALLY good sounding stuff, and am now on a mission to get some really really shitty shit. I want both ends. Its great to have an api and a dangerous mixbus after such a long time of having nothing but shit, but sometimes i find myself wanting to get some really nasty crunch out of a 50$ tube pre. Its the sound that matters, not the gear or the effort. Once you get past the constraining idea of time, things happen quicker anyways. If the api gets me that crunch shit sound quicker, but im more satisfied when I had to work for it, and sometimes I really dont care, so I stick on the api now and just get it good and move on

Envision, create and commit. The world will meet you there before the deadline

[rauri76]

I'd love to work with a nice horse hair ebony handled brush but fer now I just paint with my fingers. Mum still hangs my paintings up on the fridge though.

[heylow]

My big fat 2 cents.......


I think it's silly that people get all crazy and snob VS snob threads erupt over certain people using certain gear.

Some guys can make a great record on a 4 track cassette machine....this doesn't mean that a particular piece of gear is, by virtue, great. It means that the guy that pulled that off is a wonderfully talented individual who knows what he's doing, listens carefully and is honest about what he hears.

Wanna know how he does it? He knows the limitations, strength and weaknesses of his gear...Mackie or Neve, Alesis or Urei. People get so personal over this shit...like if you were to say, "I don't like Mackie boards...they are kinda smallish sounding.", you would have 20 guys bitching about it as if you insulted them personally. That's crazy.

Guess what....Mackie boards ARE smallish sounding compared to, say, a Neve or API board....KNOW that....USE that knowledge when you have to work on one. You will be miles ahead of the game. If you can't do that, you're screwed and it won't matter what gear you are using because you aren't listening and you aren't being honest with yourself. Egos don't make records, people do.

Let me say this as well.....when you start to realize this, you also start to realize it's the vision and the care of that vision that matters. I just got done mixing a record (or HAVING it mixed) at Tiny Telephone in San Francisco that I had tracked mostly in my basement on my gear. I don't have a lot of particularly great gear...a couple of pretty nice pieces, a few more so so pieces. Maybe I should elaborate:

Basically, most of the entire record was done using a Mackie board for monitoring, an Alesis HD24, some office dividers, a Sansamp Bass driver, a set of M160s, a set of Rode NT5s, a 441, an M88, an EV 666, a D112, a 57, a Baby Bottle, a $5 paging mic, a set of Davisound preamps and a set of borrowed Presonus pres to pick up the slack for things like toms and hats and what not. 2 of the songs had drums done elsewhere on nicer gear in a much better room.

I payed close attention during tracking and skipped any preconceived notions and went with what felt right at any given time. Sometimes that meant it took longer to achieve the desired result than it might have with better stuff in a better room. Some battles won and some lost.

I was happy with it but nervous to bring that stuff to Tiny and even more nervous about the possible contrast that a couple of the songs had stuff done on better gear and it all had to work out together without me looking like too much of a dumbass.

The result was a lot of compliments on my work and sometimes even a bit of amazement at what I had to work with VS the results. I was stoked at the way it turned out and I'm proud of the record. I learned a lot every step of the way...there are things I did perfectly and things I will do better next time.

I am not patting myself on the back, nor am I saying the record I made was some sort of holy grail of tones...the point is, you do what you can with what you got at the time and you perservere. I would have LOVED to have MUCH cooler gear. You have to be able to judge without prejudice and listen with total honesty. Know your gear's limitations as well as your own and remember it's the music that matters most but nice gear helps too. Buy gear when you can, make it something that will retain some value and never stop honing your skills OR your racks.

I didn't mean to get all about me personally...that's just the best and freshest example in my mind right now....the point stands, I think.

Just my thoughts....yet somehow I'm hoping they're relavent.


heylow

[Bear]

Makes sense to me, Low. And I'm on the same page. Though my gear is even lower grade then yours.

[heylow]

Makes sense to me, Low. And I'm on the same page. Though my gear is even lower grade then yours.

Thanks...

That last sentence is actually half the point....we all have different grades of gear, we are all at different stages of the game and some of us are in completely different games all together. We gotta use our heads, our hearts and our ears....egos and echelons be damned!

(Dang! Listen to ME tonight....gettin' all Braveheart and shit )


heylow

[wing]

I fucking bust my ass every single day, and I own some really nice gear.

I dont care who hates on me for having nice gear, they are welcome to come record with me and get the benefit of my eating shit for years, and not buying new sneakers, and wearing the same T shirt for 10 years to get a neumann, or a tape machine, or a good pre or whatever.

I agree with dave, wholeheartedly in his first post.

I would also say that if you dant want to learn from experience, dont listen to my "old fuddy duddy" ass and get something good the first time instead of making the same mistakes I did: buying ten million different crappy things, convinced that I could get a good sound out of it, rather than get 2 really nice things.

This is not a "neve club" that you belong to. Everyone that owns nice gear had to buy it. There is no elitist prerequisite for owning this shit.

SAVING YOUR MONEY until you have enough to buy a well designed piece of audio equipment with any name on it is the only way to qualify for this "elitist club."

What if dale earnheart drove an aries K?. what if Jeter wore fucked up, cheap ass sneakers and used an inferior bat?

Yes they would still be amazing atheletes, but not performing to their potential because their EQUIPMENT was limiting their abilities.

Figure it out....

Gear is not music. Gear is gear. good , bad, neato, boring, clean, dirty... but gear.

i love you as well, joel! and i've always admired a lot of the recordings you've worked on... especially sparklehorse. i really love having you guys around here though, because i know i can always totally trust in your experience and knowledge.

i'm not jealous of other people's gear, because that's pretty stupid-- but those people are the same people that turn into arrogant gear elitists once they get a lot of gear.

in all reality, it's all a psychological issue they need to work out dating back to kindergarten when little timmy's mom packed a better lunch and wouldn't share.

[JES]

I think it's all context and where a person is going. There really is something to be said for the lesson Soundguy learned. You can buy a lot of mid-level shit, or save your money and buy one awesome thing that you'll never need to upgrade. The latter is, over the years, the much better deal. But recording has become so overridden with consumerism that people can't resist buying rather than saving up for what they need. I thought Joel's comment on the "one more mic" thread was really good. In fact, I'm taking that advice for myself (though I actually have a line on a place where I can borrow a U87 now and then for free . . . the next best thing!).

But it goes both way: we have to ask about acceptable levels of quality for different projects. I just moved up from Mackie pres to a Peavey/FMR combo and I'm super psyched. Is it as good as Neve/API? No -- and yes I've heard Neves and APIs in a good studio. But it's also about $1600 less, and given my income and what I can afford, this will keep me happy for a long time to come. The units will also work especially well for my specific recording needs right now. And they are a step up from other prosumer gear, especially the Mackie.

Derek Jeter needs those kickass sneakers (especially because my Twins are going to ROCK THE YANKEES' WORLD in Mpls) because he's a pro but I just need a good quality pair of walking shoes because I walk a lot and beat the hell out of my shoes. So I got the $100 ones instead of the $40 ones. Good for him, good for me. Joel and Soundguy need their Neves. . . .

Best,
--JES

[kayagum]

Well, maybe a IMHO from a rank amateur:

I'm glad there are studios out there in the world with the first line equipment, and I'm also glad Tascam came out with the 144.

Good music is good music. I would offer that the equipment can lend character and historical context to the music.

Consider these real world examples:

Jimi Hendrix recording All Along the Watchtower at Olympic. I seriously doubt that record would've made the impact it did if it was tracked elsewhere in London on lesser equipment.

vs.

Guided By Voices recording Bee Thousand. I seriously doubt that record would've made the impact it did if it was tracked elsewhere in Ohio on greater equipment.


Or...


Cowboy Junkies recording the Trinity Sessions on a single Calrec stereo mic.

vs.

Husker Du recording Land Speed Record at 7th St Entry off of the crappy live board.

You know what- all great recordings, all great music (well, HD had better music coming, but it was a great document for the time). The studios or recording technique added extra character and historical imprint on already great music.

Joel Hamilton's partner in crime is Tony Maimone, who's played bass for legends like Pere Ubu and Bob Mould. I'm sure he's seen some pretty crappy and pretty incredible equipment and studios in his day, and I'm sure he would be the first to say that they all have their place. Joel is probably making Tony's day by actually having professional equipment versus making do in the earlier days. But it's all good, right?

I have very modest equipment even though I would venture to guess that I make quite a bit more money than the median salary of this board (I work for an evil fascist corporate bank ). But I enjoy it because the last thing I want to see after work is another computer monitor. Do ham radio guys lust after Clear Channel 1 million watt transmitters? Not necessarily, but they do appreciate what these transmitters can do, but that's not stopping them doing their thing, and enjoying it. I got most of my equipment to do theater sound design and soundtracking, for shows that make Waiting for Guffman seem Broadway in comparison. Do I want to work for an Andrew Lloyd Weber show? No! But if my gig is black shoebox theater, and enjoy it, that's my deal.

I've felt like TapeOp has been great because it started out as a zine for basement recorders, and now it has grown to the point that a 4-tracker can talk to a Neve owner, and both can be happy. THAT is cool. We all rock!