dumping tape to tools

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ValveTone Mastering
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Re: dumping tape to tools

Post by ValveTone Mastering » Mon Jan 17, 2005 4:37 pm

jack's perforated eardrum wrote: Would that work? Or would I still be seeing wow and flutter since the second dump to PT would be a second physical rolling of tape with all its inherent inconsistencies? Did I just answer my own question? :)

* Otari 5050 MK-III 8-track
* PC-based PT LE 6.something setup.
* SMPTE sync device not yet purchased
Yep, you answered your own question. Drift is pretty likely. How bad? Who knows.

Another option, you could just print a submix of drums:
1-Kick
2-Snare
3-4- Submix of toms and overheads
5- Bass

and then 3 guitar tracks.

Then load them all in in 1 pass and take it in PT from there.

Assuming you have a mixer that can sum your toms and overheads. This was a pretty standard m.o. in the 8 track days.

That's what I'd do if I still had my MCI 1" 8-track. Damnit.

Damon
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Re: dumping tape to tools

Post by east3rdst » Mon Jan 17, 2005 6:06 pm

We are talking about 1/2" right? So what are the real benefits of 1/2", the ability to not worry about over's, the slight tape eq, and compression, the cool factor? Track the drums to the tape, dump to the 001 and overdub in pro tools. The A/D/A/D conversion should be enough to write off the over rated tape benefits/nostalgia. If they must have the "warm. punch of tape" on every track, then mix down to tape for your master and send it off to a ME with killer converters.
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Re: dumping tape to tools

Post by wedge » Mon Jan 17, 2005 6:13 pm

Do the digital/analog hybrid special: Track your drums to the 1/2" but only using four or five tracks, at most. Use the others for rhythm guitars, bass, maybe a vocal or two. Dump them all into 'tools, then overdub to your hearts content in 'tools. It's what my band did and it worked really well. I personally like the sound of analog and digitally tracked stuff together in a mix. It adds sonic interest, imho...

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Re: dumping tape to tools

Post by the brill bedroom » Mon Jan 17, 2005 6:21 pm

east3rdst wrote:We are talking about 1/2" right? So what are the real benefits of 1/2", the ability to not worry about over's, the slight tape eq, and compression, the cool factor? Track the drums to the tape, dump to the 001 and overdub in pro tools. The A/D/A/D conversion should be enough to write off the over rated tape benefits/nostalgia. If they must have the "warm. punch of tape" on every track, then mix down to tape for your master and send it off to a ME with killer converters.
Lanois, you snide bastard... oops, saw the donut rock location and assumed. Seriously, though, I'm in a similar situation and your answer brings up a question. Now taht I've got 8 tracks that sound warm, organic and wonderful (I'm sure it's just my imagination, though. just some leftover nostalgia, I'm just imagining that it was much more fun to record than anything I've ever done in pro tools...ever.), what should I be looking for in terms of converters? I'm going to take it to some local commercial studio to go to Pro Tools for additional tracking, but I don't have any idea what converters I should be looking for and if it even matters. I love the way these tracks sound on my Otari (again, I know; ignorant voodoo superstition). How do I get that sound in the other world?

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jack's perforated eardrum
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Re: dumping tape to tools

Post by jack's perforated eardrum » Mon Jan 17, 2005 6:37 pm

KennyLusk wrote:...why not just track the drums on 2 tracks to begin with?
Good question! Since the drums will end up either mono or stereo, why not track 'em that way? I guess I'd have to say because I want to have more control over the drum mix than I could get with 2 tracks.
ValveTone Mastering wrote:Another option, you could just print a submix of drums
Duh. I forgot about submixing, and I forgot to mention that I do have a mixer. It's just a Behringer Eurorack thingy, but I've used it pretty successfully in the chain between my mics and PT (so far, mostly just for EQing). I was planning on running the mics right into the 8-track, but now I see that if I stick the mixer between between the mics and the 8-track I can submix away. Sheesh. Thanks for all the responses! I luv this board.
I am Jack's perforated eardrum

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Re: dumping tape to tools

Post by mertmo » Mon Jan 17, 2005 7:02 pm

I agree with Kennylusk:

I recently did a drum recording on a tascam 1/2" 8 track and only used 2 tracks. I did a full mic setup and submixed it on the way in. It only took me like 2 hours !!, and I was by myself! Just roll some tape, make adjustments, roll some more tape, make more adjustments... You will be surprised at how fast you can arrive at a great stereo mix that you will likely be happy with for the rest of the recording process. Don't worry about wanting to change the balance later.... Fuck it! Be brave and just do it.

Having said all that... If you don't want to do stereo drums on tape, then I must agree with those who are advising you to do drums and bass on the tape, dump it into protools, and just finish it in protools, possibly putting groups back onto the tape to mix from...

You probably don't really want to mess with the syncing issues you're thinking about getting into. I tried to dump an 8 track song from tape into my 001, two tracks at a time so I could use my better converters, thinking it would be easy to just line it all up with a slated click at the beginning...

WRONG! the machine never would go at the same speed, it was a nightmare. I finally settled for just loading it in all at once through the 001's crappy converters. Slightly different scenario, but the syncing issue applies...

Are you using the stock converters and clock in your 001? If you are, (I hate to be like this...) then I highly recommend that you at least reclock if not get some decent converters too. The conversion and clocking on the 001 is really pretty bad. I fear that you would do all this great work on the tape machine, and then the 001's conversion and clocking would kill 50% of the magic that you'd wrung from the ether... I'm only using an old DAT recorder to convert two channels and reclock, but even that is a MASSIVE improvement...

But don't let me be a killjoy.... Fuck that! Rock on that make that record, Yo!

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Re: dumping tape to tools

Post by mertmo » Mon Jan 17, 2005 7:06 pm

I took so long to write that post, that everyone beat me to the punch with all the shit I was trying to say....
HA!

east3rdst
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Re: dumping tape to tools

Post by east3rdst » Mon Jan 17, 2005 7:11 pm

the brill bedroom wrote:
east3rdst wrote:We are talking about 1/2" right? So what are the real benefits of 1/2", the ability to not worry about over's, the slight tape eq, and compression, the cool factor? Track the drums to the tape, dump to the 001 and overdub in pro tools. The A/D/A/D conversion should be enough to write off the over rated tape benefits/nostalgia. If they must have the "warm. punch of tape" on every track, then mix down to tape for your master and send it off to a ME with killer converters.
Lanois, you snide bastard... oops, saw the donut rock location and assumed. Seriously, though, I'm in a similar situation and your answer brings up a question. Now taht I've got 8 tracks that sound warm, organic and wonderful (I'm sure it's just my imagination, though. just some leftover nostalgia, I'm just imagining that it was much more fun to record than anything I've ever done in pro tools...ever.), what should I be looking for in terms of converters? I'm going to take it to some local commercial studio to go to Pro Tools for additional tracking, but I don't have any idea what converters I should be looking for and if it even matters. I love the way these tracks sound on my Otari (again, I know; ignorant voodoo superstition). How do I get that sound in the other world?

HA! Ok let's get a couple things straight. First off, I don't know shit and really, most of my experience with analog/digital/tape/Hard drive is with limited gear, ( I use an Alesis AI-3 as an 8 track converter). But I would love to hear the results of a straight dump to Pro-Tools (with whatever you have for converters) on 2 tracks routed back to a mixers 2 tracks, compared to your 8-track tape machines outputted to your mixer, bought up on another 2 tracks. Switch back and forth and see if the difference isn't corrected by a bit of eq/compressor plugins and if its really worth all the hassle/debate/fighting/money/etc. While your at it you can kill the summing issue as well.

Secondly, I would love to try out a 2" 24 track locked up to Pro-Tools through the best convertors possible, with the best outboard gear possible. But I can't, so I'll make due with what I have and try to keep working with bands I like and engaging in debates for the sake of debate with the fine people on this board.

Thirdly, I don't know shit...did I mention that. But before I believe something, I want to hear it...see it...not just read it.

Fourthly(?) Hamilton is a vital music city with a great music scene, some of the finest bands in NA and blooming with old, cheap, empty buildings and possibility...and it smells a little funny on certain days...oh, and the donuts aren't that great
Donny Cooper

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Re: dumping tape to tools

Post by chris harris » Tue Jan 18, 2005 7:00 am

east3rdst wrote:overrated benefits of tape
east3rdst wrote:kill the summing issue
east3rdst wrote:I don't know shit
you're right.. you don't.

nice of you to "engage in debates for the sake of debate with the fine people on this board." and make statements like the first 2 I quoted, BEFORE you admit that you don't know shit.

again... like I've said many, many times... the biggest problem with getting your information from messageboards is learning who can be trusted and who is acting like they know what they're talking about.

at least you admitted that you don't know shit. of course, it was after you made a couple of ignorant statements in a way that made it look like you might have known what you were talking about.

beware the messageboard expert who develops most of their knowledge from reading and not doing. The messageboard expert will take bits of "wisdom" that they've read, run it through the "what parts do I WANT to believe" filter (usually based on their budget) and start spouting off like they actually have the experience to be commenting on.
watch out for these people.

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Re: dumping tape to tools

Post by chris harris » Tue Jan 18, 2005 7:06 am

east3rdst wrote:HA! Ok let's get a couple things straight. First off, I don't know shit and really, most of my experience with analog/digital/tape/Hard drive is with limited gear,

<snip>

Thirdly, I don't know shit...did I mention that. But before I believe something, I want to hear it...see it...not just read it.
what 1/2" tape machines do you have experience with to justify your "tape myth" comments?

you're not using the Alesis converters and some shitty mixer to try to "kill the summing issue" are you? Which converters have you used? What mixing desk?

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Re: dumping tape to tools

Post by the brill bedroom » Tue Jan 18, 2005 8:52 am

Settle down, Francis. Besides, I still don't know anything about converters and if this turns into a giant flame war (with festering recriminations even) and I'll never get my information.

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Re: dumping tape to tools

Post by chris harris » Tue Jan 18, 2005 9:01 am

the brill bedroom wrote:Settle down, Francis. Besides, I still don't know anything about converters and if this turns into a giant flame war (with festering recriminations even) and I'll never get my information.
start a thread on converters... ask questions that you want answered... and wait for responses from people who actually use the gear that you're asking about.
it's easy.

or, if you want to know about converters, use the search function and set aside a day or two to read through the results.

I'm not starting a flame war. I'm trying to help people like you with legitimate questions to get answers from people who know and not people who pretend to know.

good luck.

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Re: dumping tape to tools

Post by east3rdst » Tue Jan 18, 2005 10:33 am

subatomic pieces wrote:
east3rdst wrote:overrated benefits of tape
east3rdst wrote:kill the summing issue
east3rdst wrote:I don't know shit
you're right.. you don't.

nice of you to "engage in debates for the sake of debate with the fine people on this board." and make statements like the first 2 I quoted, BEFORE you admit that you don't know shit.

again... like I've said many, many times... the biggest problem with getting your information from messageboards is learning who can be trusted and who is acting like they know what they're talking about.

at least you admitted that you don't know shit. of course, it was after you made a couple of ignorant statements in a way that made it look like you might have known what you were talking about.

beware the messageboard expert who develops most of their knowledge from reading and not doing. The messageboard expert will take bits of "wisdom" that they've read, run it through the "what parts do I WANT to believe" filter (usually based on their budget) and start spouting off like they actually have the experience to be commenting on.
watch out for these people.
Easy there. Text is a really bad way to get connotations across, I should probably use emoticons as that's why they're available, but I hate them. Most of what I said is to be taken as a sort "ribbing" between friends, so don't get too bent out of shape, and dissect it into lines and cut me up...I like you, and you like me :D

"overrated" maybe wasn't the best choice of words, how about over exaggerated?

The topic was started to find the best application for an 8 track in a protools world and I believe what I said to be the best option (that?s why I said it) and a valid point. I've struggled trying to sync up an 8-track to a 001 and get it to hold with limited gear and it was not worth the often exaggerated benefits of an 8 track-1/2".

We did get a little off topic with the converters thing, but I thought it might be useful to find out another persons experience with standard digi converters. The mixbuss thing was a joke, sort of.

Debate is extremly important even if it's just to strengthen our beliefs, and it can be fun.

Also the "i don't know shit" was a joke, I don't know shit...a little.

Lets all hug
Donny Cooper

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Re: dumping tape to tools

Post by KennyLusk » Tue Jan 18, 2005 12:47 pm

Not to get off topic, but it IS funny (once in a while) to see people get their "panties in a bunch."

And...by the way...that little rant was funny.

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Re: dumping tape to tools

Post by ValveTone Mastering » Tue Jan 18, 2005 1:18 pm

east3rdst wrote:
We did get a little off topic with the converters thing, but I thought it might be useful to find out another persons experience with standard digi converters.
Actually, converters aren't off topic at all.

The quality of the converters is crucial in ANY scheme that involves combining/dumping analog tape with/into protools. And, I think you're right.

Without at least "decent" converters, a large part of the benefit of tape is offset by the poor conversion. But, then again, if you were going all digital, you'd be faced with those same converters anyway, so, maybe it's sort of moot.

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