Help! High end ear fatigue problem with Mixing

[damian]

Thanks for taking a look. I have a home studio set up where I am recording/mixing my bands first album. They guys like the first two demos I did, so they thought I could do the whole thing. And, so far I am getting pretty good results. I am having a problem. It seems that there are too many (inaudible??) frequencies at the high end... I feel like my head is going to explode when I turn the volume up. Can anyone give some good mixing tips to get that under control? Or has anyone experienced this same problem? Everything else seems pretty tight....

Looking for frequency ranges that I might try to cut... that kinda stuff... maybe the problem is coming from too much compression... the reverb?

Anyway, I am using a HD recording setup on a G4. All digital through a motu 828... I am running Logic Audio 6.0 ... and the only thing on the mix is a little compression for the drums... and some reverb to make things sound like they fit in the same room. I am pretty novice... so any help is good.

Damian

[JGriffin]

You may have your monitor speakers wired out of phase. Listening to out-of-phase speakers can sometimes make your head feel like it's gonna explode. Test: Hit the mono switch (on your mixer or in your software somewhere there's gotta be a way to put the program into mono) and see if stuff that's center-panned (i.e. has an identical volume out of both speakers), like kick, snare or vocals gets quieter or vanishes entirely. That's phase cancellation and it means you have to reverse the + and - wires to one of the speakers.

[jayrope]

came to your post because i was searching for 'digital degradation" instead of starting a thread about it instantly. maybe later... anyways:

do you record 24bit? you should. i destroyed a bunch of records before by not takin gcare of this.

is your interface aswell as most other digital devices word-clock slaved to a word-clock master? they should, especially your interface. i destroyed a bunch of records before by not takin gcare of this.

are you oftenly tweaking around with signal in the digital domain rather than getting the recording sound right beforehand with analogue eq-ing, compression, mic-preing? you shouldn't. i destroyed a bunch of records before by not taking care of this.

sorry for being seemingly esoteric, but just start considering these points.
may change your whole approach to the digital and leeds to a more careful selection of devices when you go out next time getting the new shit - which can be awesome still. only needs some time to figure out which. for instance the only EQ in the digital (this time VST) domain, that is kind of true to phase is the q-metric eq. there's okay sounding eq with great capabilites especially when repairing stuff, that didn't get recorded right, like waves renaissance eqs, the TLA eq and such, inly they won't be able to provide information that you lost in the recording process already.

thats the main source of ears getting tired: loss of information.

i can provide some solutions if needed, then just msg.

janek
i destroyed a bunch of records before by not taking care.

[damian]

Thanks for the replys. I feel some of the high end on the monitors...but I am feeling it still when I burn a reference disk. I am recording 24bit. I don't know if my monitors are wired out of phase, but I have put the mix mono and I still have the problem. And I have a feeling it is too much sparkle or something at the very high barely audible end...

The problem... and I don't know if I can quite put this into words... is that the sound does not pull you in??? The mix sound great except ... maybe harsh is the word? Does not lend to loud volumes like most rock albums I love...

Things I am wondering... is there something inherent in digital reverb plug-ins that pump out strange frequencies? Is there an EQ i should be putting on my reverb bus that can pull this out? Do you normally filter out the high end of reverb on your bus submix?

Is there something in compression that I am not thinking about? I can compress my overheads right? Or do the cymbals when they are compressed cause some sort of high end phase problem?

Or is it simply the fact that I am recording digitally instead of to tape? I have heard of a trick that once you are done with your mix, you do a dump to tape to get that tape compressed sound. Is it the tape that smoothes out these high end sounds?

[Russian Recording]

First of all, make sure your not monitoring at too high of a volume. Your head will definately feel like it's going to explode after prolonged constant exposure to high SPLs. Get a dB meter and make sure you're no louder than 85 dB. I feel much better, can mix much longer and have better results when I mix quietly, only occasional cranking it to check for consistency.

To really see if your speakers are out of phase, put everything into mono and face the speakers directly at eachother. Push them relatively close to eachother and if you notice the trhe sound totally dissapears than they are out of phase. Swith the leads around on one speaker and voila! you've got sound and your speakers are in phase.

Sometimes shelf-cutting the high end at about 8K on you reverb helps.

Be careful with overhead compression. You can get some really weird artifacts in your cymbals if you over-compress and set sloppy attack and release times. Whoooshishashzzzzschhhh.

Best thing to do is get your sounds right at the souce. Instead of spending a bunch of time indecisively tweaking reverbs, EQ and compression during mix-time, spend that time during tracking to get the sounds you want by moving the drums, moving the mics, switching out the mics, applying eq and dynamics when necessary.

I hope I was a little helpful
mike

[Flight Feathers]

hey Damian

is your mixing room a square/rectangular room with drywall walls and flat ceiling? do your mixes make your head explode on every stereo you listen to or just in your control room? if so, it maybe that your room is too "live" and the parallel surfaces are causing the audio to bounce around all over the place. a high pitched ringing echo is pretty typical with drywall bedrooms, especially those with hard floors. walk around and clap your hands or click 2 drum sticks together, if you hear some slapback echo, you need to treat the room. i know those uncontrolled high frequencies drive me freakin insane.

ayan

[damian]

Yeah. I think wall are causing part of the problem... And I will treat the mixing area. That is a good tip. My head feels like it is going to explode-- Definitely! But, it seems to happen in the car and any radio I play the tracks on too... whereas other CDs I listen to don't

[Electricide]

perhaps there is interference corrupting the audio cables in your studio, or some RF or feedback sneaking into the audio path. Do you hear it when you solo up, say, a vocal mic? What if you bus that to a Tape Deck and listen through headphones? Maybe the signal is introduced late in the game (monitors) or maybe right when it gets to your computer. Try to troubleshoot a bit to locate when the sound appears. Start with the shortest distance possible, like mic>pre>headphones, or something, and sequentially introduce your components. Then start introducing compressors, etc.

Maybe it's one thing, or maybe it's the summing of a bunch of little things.

[damian]

Shoot. I already have recorded most of the tracks... I did notice some RF which i think is being introduced in the snake... but only if I turn the mic gain up super hot...

Any suggestions for fixing the problem now that the tracks are down?

[damian]

I have tried a lot of the suggestions that people here have mentioned. I think probably that my drums were to "live" when I recorded them... and the cymbal frequencies are what is causing the problem. Now I have to do damage control because rerecording the drums would be a pain. The ear fatigue problem it seems is integral to the tracks and not in the mixing environment. I have burned a disk for CD -- listened in the car, the house, the office, on a variety of other places... The high end is making the music very unapproachable even though what I "hear" actually sounds good.

Thanks for the help? Any suggestions for damage control on that cymbal high end?

[trashy]

I would do some subtractive eq-ing on those bad boys. Start at 16k (meaning drop everything after that freq.) and see if that doesn't help. If it doesn't try 15.5k. At about 15k you should really here the difference, too much I would think.

I'm sure you've already done this, but just to make sure - you could pull down the overheads.

I assume you're recording digital? I hear alot of bad top end on digital recordings (mine included), so I always so some eq work. Recording at the highest bit rate helps, but if that's not an option (or the tracks are already down) eq away!