Need career advice from all of you that do this for a living

[bern]

I know a lot of you guys do this stuff for a living and I'm looking to get into a career in recording but I have so many questions. I've recently hit a wall as far as where to look and what I should/shouldn't be doing. I guess for starters, I'm 22, and I've already interned at 2 studios so far and I'm an excellent worker(floor mopper/window cleaner/coffee maker) but I keep working for people that don't really want an intern. I've been accumulating gear over the last year and I've been taking on some clients and making SOME money doing it, but I don't want to get into a trap of recording crappy bands for crap money in my basement for 20 years.

Does anyone have any advice as to what I should be doing right now to get oppertunities? I've emailed every studio in town about another internship and I can't seem to get anyone to bite. I hate to talk about money, but I want to be somewhat comfortable (at some point). What should I be looking into right now? I need direction!!!!

[wayne kerr]

I hate to talk about money, but I want to be somewhat comfortable (at some point). What should I be looking into right now? I need direction!!!!

Go to college.

[cgarges]

I think the internship route really is the way to go. If you don't know much about the technical side of recording, you can go to a trade school like Tempe, AR or Chillicothe, OH, or even one of the bigger institutions like University of Miami, but once you get out, you'll still pretty much have to intern.

In looking for an internship, I'd say go after a place that MAY be likely to hire someone in the not TERRIBLY distant future. Someplace that either has a staff of more than two or three people or somewhere that may be a smaller, one-man operation that may eventually find your help worth paying for. In either case, you may not be offered a job until someone leaves or dies, but that's what you have to expect. Beyond that, I'd say make yourself as appetizing as possible. By that, I mean keep in mind that you're trying to get a job in an industry that is HURTING right now. Anything you can offer that goes above what any other intern has to offer is gong to get you farther. I hate to say it, but sheer helpfulness and willingess to learn won't get you there alone. Everybody claims to have that.

You're at a definite advantage if you've been recording people in your area. Whether you realize it or not, you are establishing a CLIENT BASE. Assuming that these people have been happy with the job you're doing, this makes you much more valuable than the average intern. If a studio owner/manager thinks that by having you around, they can get more business, they will keep you around. See about working out some sort of deal with the studio. You know, you bring clients in during off-hours and they keep a (usually large) percentage of the money. If you don't screw things up and you manage to keep everybody happy, that's a good thing that will eventually lead to better things.

Does this make sense?

Chris Garges
Charlotte, NC

[bern]

Thanks Chris. I've been entertaining the idea of going to recording school but right now I'm trying to finish an associates degree in business so that if in fact I end up in a studio or running my own, I can actually RUN it.....and not into the ground. Both of the places I've interned at had only 2 or 3 people that worked there. I had an oppertunity to stay at the better of the two, but in the end, I got screwed out of a position by another engineer that worked there who brought a friend in. And I think that my boss(the owner) just thought it was easier for him to not have to deal with training someone. The long and the short of it is that I'm rather short on luck lately.

[soundguy]

bern-

making dough is tough these days if you arent already in, I couldnt imagine starting out now, the economy is shit, etc, etc, etc. The only big advice I would say is locate yourself in a place where you CAN make dough. Do engineers in detroit make lots of money, or are they starving? I dont know. If there isnt the *possibility* of making a living there, consider moving to a town where that possibility, at least, exists.

beyond that, hang in there.

dave

[bern]

Thanks Dave,
Engineers in Detroit make about $20/hr. from what I've seen so far. These are guys that work at a studio owned by other people of course. I've also entertained the idea of moving to someplace I could have more oppertunities, but I'm somewhat intimidated by the fact that so far I'm self taught and that studios would be looking for kids straight out of recording school. I know quite a bit from interning and essentially running my own studio, but that doesn't compare to a degree or certificate.

[brew]

bern, i'm 22 also, and I have to agree with soundguy, the best thing you can do for yourself right now, if you are truly interested in "something bigger" is to move to the largest market you can. i would say forget the audio school track. you've already put in worthwhile time at two studios, so i assume you can wrap cables, solder, and have a general grasp of the day-to-day studio scene. that, and a genuine interest, is all you need to succeed anywhere. but the only place you will grow is in a bigger studio. the amount and variety of work in a large market is vital to expanding your knowledge (and contact) base. you will simply not get this kind of "education" in a smaller city and in a small studio. like you said, the people you worked for "don't really need an intern." go straight to the top dogs.

[joel hamilton]

Record stuff with what you have available EVERY SINGLE DAY.

Pretty soon, if you stick with it, people will ask you to repeat those results for them.

This isnt like being a motel manager. Be creative!


(sheesh!, Is this the answer I give for every question on this board now>???)

[doc]

I've emailed every studio in town about another internship and I can't seem to get anyone to bite.

This might be part of the problem. Studios get tons of cold emails every day. If you're serious about it, you need to print up your resume and march your ass into every studio you might want to work at. Make sure you ask questions while there. You might want to call ahead to make sure it's okay to come in and look around. Ask to take the tour and while on said tour listen to what they have to say but make sure they listen to you as well. This way you'll get a vibe for the studio and they'll get a feel for whether you might fit in at their studio.

I don't believe in "big breaks." What usually happens is a series of small breaks which sounds like you've already had some of. The fact that you've interned (with somewhat success it seems) and have started recording people on your own for money means you're on your way. You just need to keep pressing until it works out. This industry is all about contacts so the more face time you get with studio owners, engineers, and studio managers the better chance you have at landing an entry level engineering position.

Keep Going!

-Doc

[jmiller]

I've also entertained the idea of moving to someplace I could have more oppertunities, but I'm somewhat intimidated by the fact that so far I'm self taught and that studios would be looking for kids straight out of recording school.

Dude, we get several calls a week at our studio from guys just getting out of School. Then they come in with these beautiful resumes in Full Sail (or other school) folders, tour around the studio, and they leave looking depressed, because they can't believe they just spent thousands of dollars and a year or two in school and can't get a better job than being a Runner.

School might help, but the good ol' fashioned combo of persistence, experience, personality and lucky timing probably helps more. It helped me, and i'm the only guy who didn't go to school there.

As far as moving somewhere else- what I can tell you is there are too fucking many wannabee engineers in L.A. This market is so flooded with guys at your (and my) level of employability that you could come all the way out here just to do what you were already doing, but competing with a lot more (less friendly) people. I'm by no means an expert on this subject- I only just got out of the boat you're in. But, it seems like maybe it would be good to stay where you are and work "up the ladder", and when you're in a better position to be hired as an AE or assistant, THEN you could go to a better market.

I don't really know. I don't have as high a vantage point as others here, but from my view, that's how it seems to me. Hope I'm not being ignorant.

[Professor]

I hope TapeOp will forgive me for recommending a different publication, you really should get out and buy the current copy (yellow cover with the ART preamp) of Recording Magazine and read the article written by one of my former teachers entitled "How Not to Make Money in the Studio Business". I found it very insightful, and the author, Rich Sanders is definitely familiar with the ups and downs of the studio business in a medium sized city.
I would say that after two internships (presumably of some reasonable length) that you should be done looking for internship and should be moving onto assistant engineer positions. Although I was talking to someone at the AES convention in NYC who said that she worked as an Ass. Engineer at the Hit Factory for the last two years before recently quitting. She earned both a Bachelor's in Electrical Engineering and a Master's in Recording and they hired her on at minimum wage as an assistant. Her assisting was mostly coffee, gofer work, etc. for the first year or so, and when there were sessions where she assisted the hours were 14-18 a day. Apparently places like the Hit Factory don't even hire lead engineers since they are freelance now. But, she said that they are constantly hiring new folks as turn-over is high, though a few people stick around for longer lengths.
It any an easy task, I still occasionally look around and wonder how I ended up at this job.

-J

[wayne kerr]

I wasn't being a smartass when I said "go to college." This is a VERY difficult business in which to make a living. You mentioned financial security - fuhgeddaboutit! Unless you're among the 1% of LA, New York or Nashville guys and gals, you're gonna be living on ramen noodles (fortunately $2.00/24 at Ralph's!) and sharing a one-bedroom above somebody's garage in The Valley for $1000/mo! Most independent guys can make $35-$50/hr out here and the biggies can take some points, but $20/hr. seems about average for nobody's. And $20/hr. goes a LOT farther in Motown (my hometown, BTW) than it does out here in Hell-A!

I'm not trying to discourage you at all. I just want you to know exactly what you're getting yourself into. This can be a VERY rewarding occupation if you stick with it, but if you're looking for financial security, GO TO COLLEGE!

I've been at this since 1987 when I was taping live bands on my 4-track for beer. I'm now in the process of finishing the wiring on my FOURTH studio. It's an obsession, and if you've got the nug, then you may have no choice, but if you're not absolutely 100% committed to this craft, find another way to make money. That way, when you are a millionaire, you can then build a hella-MONSTER uberstudio and give ME a job!

Best of luck to you, really.

[cheexolicious]

Hi,

I don't do this for a living. Yet.

But at any rate, here is an idea that i'm trying to put together to feed my own experience.

I want to locate 1 or 2 cool people who want to pitch in and rent a space. Then pool our gear and get set up with what we collectively have and record there. I don't care about making money right now. I have a job and frankly I'd rather have a place to record than an intership right now. Not that I wouldn't love to intern and learn from people who know their shit already. Part of my impetus for this idea is that I need a better place to record myself than the room in my house where I'm doing it now. And I want a space where I can record local acts which I definitely can't do at my house. The other thing I like about this is that since it's not really about making money at this point, I'm compelled to look for people whose music I really like and want to record.

Maybe this isn't feasible or disirable for you. But it's an idea for getting some recording experience. And if I get lucky enough to hook up with a couple of people who are cool we'll all get to learn from each other.

And hey. If anybody in Austin is interested in this or knows somebody who might be please let me know. I haven't actively started putting the feelers out yet, but I'd love to talk to anybody who is interested.

Dan

[soundguy]

bern-

just a thought about recording schools, I wouldnt worry about not attending one. Personally, I would very much avoid ever hiring anyone right out of recording school to intern or assist for me. Given the choice between some self taught dude who was starving and really motivated or some kid who just got out of recording school and knew the "rules" and all the answers, well, that choice for me is pretty clear and I know Im not the only one that feels that way. Its not like there is a shortage of kids that DIDNT go to recording school... Dont let that get you down. Granted, you might not get a job at the giant commercial house that is LOOKING for recording school grads, but there are still plenty of studios out there that are decent and cool that you'll be able to get into without that experience.

Consider moving to a larger market and get to know bands that do lots of studio work and start to make the rounds. You'll starve like that for a while, then you'll work for free for a while, and hopefully over the course of that struggle you'll be able to figure out an angle on how to make some cash.

dave

[JGriffin]

I have to agree with chocolatechickenpotpie on this. Go to college, get a degree. You never know. And if financial security is something high on your list, I have to warn you you are barking up the wrong career tree. Lots of guys here in Chicago are barely making it. Lots are getting laid off. I happen to be one of the lucky ones [knock on wood] in that I've had a pretty steady gig making a moderate amount of money. I am still in debt up to my earballs but I am not eating ramen noodles--a delicate and precarious balance. But, as has been noted elsewhere on this board, I work in a studio that's housed in an ad agency, so I make radio commercials for a living, not music. I also do film work, theater sound design and a small amount of music recording after the work day is done. But that brings me to my bit of advice: keep an open mind about other engineering opportunities beyond the basic albums-and-demos market, which is oversaturated in most big markets. If your "I wanna be a recording engineer" definition is broad enough, this might be okay for you, but if you just want to record bands it may well be unacceptable.