How Does One Sync an Analog Tape Multitrack to a DAW?

[greatmagnet]

Hi All,

I'm a seasoned Digital Peformer user (in the Rock n' Roll multitrack idiom, not too midi-saavy) who just recently purchased his first semi-pro analog recording deck...an Otari MX5050 1/2" 8-track machine. Just got it up and running and am very happy with the sound and want to start trying to use it in conjuction with the digital realm.

The question: How do you get the DAW and reel-to-reel running in sync, so when you hit play, record, or whatever on the analog machine, your DAW begins to track in unison? I believe that you have to lay down some kind of "time code" on the eighth track of the analog deck, and the DAW "reads" that somehow. Obviously, I don't know how to get the code onto the tape deck, or whether the DAW can read it on its' own or if I need a third piece of hardware to do that.

I'm on a G4 and my I/O is a MOTU 2408, which for the unfamiliar has 24 optical ins, eight balanced analog ins (that's how I'm monitoring the Otari), plus wordclock in/out, and probably a host of other input/output sources I'm forgetting. It's PCI hardware-based.

I'm not looking for in-detail answers (unless you're willing) but I need to know what I need to get started. Any knowledge would be greatly appreciated.

Cheers,
Adam Sullivan
Napa, CA

[penrithmatt]

you know what,just track to the otari and then dump all 8 tracks in to the computer.it's gonna be a lot easier!!
if you really want to gown the sync route you could look at the MOTU MTP AV.it's a sync box that hooks up to yer computer via USB.i'm pretty sure that it will generate timecode too.so,set it up,stripe code on a track,usually an outside track like 8/16/24,plug the output of that code into the code reader of the MTP,set yer start time in the computer to the same time as the code,hit play on the otari and off you go......................

matthew

www.allairestudios.com

[studio2420]

Adam,
Track and dump is the best way, saves wear on the otari, less quality loss, and easy to sync multiple tracks in the daw. I do it this way with my 16 track and I have never looked back. Spend your money on the best converters you can afford instead !

[greatmagnet]

I am constantly stunned by the speed and grace with which replies to my questions are posted on this board...what a great group of people!

Matthew, I hear what you're saying, but I guess my thing is that I am trying to record bands in a "live" type of performance situation, where the amps are isolated, but everyone is playing at the SAME TIME. I want to be able to record the drums using my OTARI, the rest of the instruments using DP, and play them back simultaneously right after recording. I don't want to say to my client "okay, now you have to wait ten minuted while I dump this onto my DAW and nudge it into sync with the other tracks". That's my goal if I didn't state it clearly.

The MOTU MTP AV sounds like a good thing...I'll check it out.

Cheers,
Adam

[Curtis]

OT - but wow what a gorgeous studio!

penrithmatt
www.allairestudios.com

[foley]

Oh my gosh! That has to be one of the greatest studios I have ever seen! Wow. Wow.

Uh, let me clean up the drool and get back to the question. The Otari should have a smpte out on the back. I just got a motu 828 mkii, and I have yet to experiment with this, but it seems as though the smpte out can go to the smpte in of the motu, and then the computer and the otari will be in synch (I have the same set up as yourself). This is descibed (a little) in the 828 handbook but, again, I haven't tried it yet.

Does anyone have experience with the smpte technique I crudely described above?

mf

[Quest Poetics]

Dont get me wrong...I love my humble begginings , but jesus that makes me want to kill myself...That is beautiful....

[axial]

I know, that is OMG! if I ever seen it!

[tret-lo]

I am in a similar situation. I just picked up a Teac 80-8 1/2" 8-track, and I'd like to use it in conjunction with my DAW (currently an Aardvark Q10, but hopefully switching soon to a MOTU 828mk2). Specifically, I'd like to track using the tape machine (sacrificing one track to SMPTE) and analog ins, a total of 15 tracks. Most importantly, I want to mix all the tracks back through my desk (a soundcraft detla 200), rather than dumping the tape to disk.

My question is the following: does slaving a DAW to SMPTE degrade the audio quality of your digital tracks? It seems questionable to put high precision digital audio at the mercy of a 20 year old tape deck. Can anyone explain technically how the slaving takes place. Specifially, does the word-clock actually vary its pulse length according to the SMPTE messages? Morever, has anyone actually tried this with success?

Cheers,
Ryan

[rpowell]

The sync'ing of analog tape and DAW or MDM is fraught with issues and is a series of compromises. In the best of cases it can work well, but when you're on the clock and working with a sync situation in tracking mode, beware of the countless times it has killed a vibe because of some sync malfunction.

Here are some things to look out for:

1. I'd recommend SMPTE time code to be recorded to tape at a level no higher than 0 VU. If you peg it, the tape saturation distortion might wreak havoc with your code.

2. An outside track is usually used to stripe SMPTE. The pro studios allow a blank track as a "guard band" between the SMPTE track and the next recorded track, so that cross-talk doesn't screw with the code. Therefore, they are actually sacrificing 2 tracks for the sync. Recording in the guard band has been done successfully, but you are rolling the dice.

3. When the DAW is truly slaving to SMPTE code, it is actually changing sample rates on the fly to account for the minute fluctuations in the speed of the tape machine. This DOES deteriorate the integrity of the digital signal to a degree. However, many records have been made this way.
The "purist" way to preserve the integrity of the digital signal is to slave the tape machine with a servo driven by time code from the DAW. Needless to say, this is much more expensive than when the DAW is the slave.

4. Despite the best-laid SMPTE time code, every once in awhile there will be a hiccup and you will lose lock. If you have a "jam sync" mode in your SMPTE reader, it can repair small hiccups on the fly so you won't lose your lock so often.

5. Roll 30 seconds of pre-roll code on your tape machine before the start of the song! Most of these DAW/analog tape sync situations require both machines to be put into play, and it will be a few seconds before your DAW catches up to your tape machine and locks to code (or vice versa). And you thought that ADATs locked up bad!

Just a few pointers from the school of hard knocks; I'm sure there are experts on this board who will be able to elaborate more than i can.

RP

[CDSager]

I have never synced an anolog tape machine to DP, but I have had much success with syncing an MTR90 to pro tools.

It really is all about the smpte, as JayZ says.

I have found that the best level for sympte is -7. I also agree with the gaurd band track.

Another thing that is really important is the session start timeand the incoming session time. Make sure that your incoming session time matches the time reference on your tape machine.


Rock and Roll

[wayne kerr]

The sync'ing of analog tape and DAW or MDM is fraught with issues and is a series of compromises. In the best of cases it can work well, but when you're on the clock and working with a sync situation in tracking mode, beware of the countless times it has killed a vibe because of some sync malfunction.

It's really not that scary. It's done HUNDREDS of times a day for all manner of audio/visual production. MOST sync problems are the result of pilot error. With some care and planning, you can sync without a hitch. Your MX5050 will present a slightly bigger challence because if I'm not mistaken, it has no time code input and without some SERIOUS and costly modification, it will not chase code. That means it will have to always act as the master. But again, if you do everything "right" (as in what the machines want to see), you should have raging success 99% of the time.

1. I'd recommend SMPTE time code to be recorded to tape at a level no higher than 0 VU. If you peg it, the tape saturation distortion might wreak havoc with your code.

You don't even wanna approach 0 VU! Most time code synchronizers will accept code in the -12 VU to -10 VU range. SMPTE is a biphase tach pulse (a square wave) and it is very nasty sounding and unmusical. ON a narrow gague machine like the MX5050, you are almost guaranteed an unacceptable level of crosstalk. Experiment with levels and find the MINIMUM level that your synchronizer will read and then bump that up by a dB. If you have to exceed -7 VU, there is something wrong with your synchronizer.

2. An outside track is usually used to stripe SMPTE. The pro studios allow a blank track as a "guard band" between the SMPTE track and the next recorded track, so that cross-talk doesn't screw with the code. Therefore, they are actually sacrificing 2 tracks for the sync. Recording in the guard band has been done successfully, but you are rolling the dice.

I'm assuming you're not gonna want to burn two tracks out of eight for sync. Again, if you keep the levels low enough, you should be able to get away without the buffer. Also, it helps to put something LOUD on track 7!

3. When the DAW is truly slaving to SMPTE code, it is actually changing sample rates on the fly to account for the minute fluctuations in the speed of the tape machine. This DOES deteriorate the integrity of the digital signal to a degree. However, many records have been made this way. The "purist" way to preserve the integrity of the digital signal is to slave the tape machine with a servo driven by time code from the DAW. Needless to say, this is much more expensive than when the DAW is the slave.

True enough. Fortunately, your synchronizer will likely provide you with a jam sync option. This mode continually regenerates incoming code using a separate clock. IN this way, wow and flutter will not effect the code that you actually send to the DAW. The bigger issue, IME, is the SMPTE-sample rate conversion. Remember, good ol' SMPTE is only accurate to 1/30 sec. (at 30NDF, and fer fukksake, make SURE you are using 30NDF for audio!) and the DAW is sample-accurate (1/x sec., x=sample rate). This is where your system clock really needs to concentrate on its task. SOME clocks are not so good at doing this and the result is often noticeable (though rarely session-killing) artifacts. You just need to be aware of this.

4. Despite the best-laid SMPTE time code, every once in awhile there will be a hiccup and you will lose lock. If you have a "jam sync" mode in your SMPTE reader, it can repair small hiccups on the fly so you won't lose your lock so often.

Sho 'nuff! You know, I don't think I've ever seen a synchronizer that didn't jam!

5. Roll 30 seconds of pre-roll code on your tape machine before the start of the song! Most of these DAW/analog tape sync situations require both machines to be put into play, and it will be a few seconds before your DAW catches up to your tape machine and locks to code (or vice versa). And you thought that ADATs locked up bad!

Absolutely, and along those same lines, NEVER start your time code at 00:00:00.00! If your sytem ever rolls back behind zero, oh man look out! A common convention is to start code at 01:00:00.00. This keeps everything on an easy to understand level, especially when you need to calculate offsets! I like to go one step further - on a multiple-reel session, start reel #1 at 01:00:00.00, reel #2 at 02:00:00.00, reel#3 at 03:00:00.00 and so on. This will make your life SO MUCH easier!

Good luck!

CCPP

[greatmagnet]

Wow, lots of good advice for me so far. I hope to be able to return the favor some day when I'm less stupid.

In regards to that last message about sample rates fluctuating all over the place and leaving artifacts, I'd think he's absolutely right about using the SMPTE sync purely for monitoring and playback. That way, if you're recording a band in a "live in the studio" situation as I do, the whole band can hear the synced-up playback after each session INCLUDING those fat analog drums, which will make them smile and things will move along more quickly approval-wise. THEN, when the client has gone home you can dump the analog to daw WITHOUT the SMPTE tracking and simply nudge the tracks into their correct position, sans-artifacts. Yes?

ANOTHER GREAT POINT a friend of mine brought up last night: Everyone agrees that kick, snare, and cymbals are a whole different (and better) beast when recorded to tape. HOWEVER, he and I both happen to absolutely LOVE the way TOMS sound straight to DIGITAL. I don't know (or care) if others agree, but that being the case, you could record your toms straight to the DAW and the rest to the Otari analog machine. If you do it THAT way, you just saved yourself 2-3 TRACKS on the Otari (!), and therefore you have now scored your much-coveted blank buffer track for the Otari SMPTE stripping no problemo. VOILA!

See how much a moron can learn from the TapeOp message board?

[TooLoFi]

I'm ignorant to a lot of sync issues, but I did something similar the other day. The new 828mk11 has a SMPTE generator built in. I slaved a digital tape machine to the DAW with decent success, though the machine was falling in and out of sync. I agree that it would be better to have your DAW as the master in the absence of a clock to resolve to. I would love to try what you're doing with the analog tape machine just to see what issues arise with the sound.

greg