Experience w/ UPS claims/ small claims court?

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Experience w/ UPS claims/ small claims court?

Post by honkyjonk » Mon Jan 19, 2004 12:35 pm

I was wondering if anybody has dealt with a similar issue and succeeded in aquiring claim money from UPS. And if you might be able to offer any helpful tips. Here's my sob story:

UPS really did a number on a Otari 4-track that was shipped to me. Totally bashed back panel. It doesn't work. At this point I'd rather have the money I spent on this machine, because I've since bought a Tascam 48 8 track that I'm very pleased with.
Anyway, I filed a claim. Denied. I refuted it. Denied again. They're immediate response to any claim, as I've learned from research, is to point the finger at isufficient packaging.

The two things that are against me are:
1. the packaging was fine, but the box was 2-ply instead of 3-ply cardboard. The little emblem that says what grade cardboard it is, was on top of the box though, and in full view. So I blame this on UPS because they should have never allowed the box to be shipped. They didn't even have to open it up to see that.

2. I am the receiver of the package. Though it was my money that paid for isurance and shipping, UPS alway deals w/ claims through the shipper and will only refund money to the shipper. And they know damn well that 9 packages out of 10 are an ebay purchase where the receiver of the package has payed for the item, and the insurance and the shipping and the shipper already has his money so he's less likely to pursue the matter passionately.

Anyway, I have a signed document from the shipper that I wrote up that says he gives me complete authority to pursue the claim, and that I paid for the shipping and insurance on the item, and that I should receive any claim money that a claim would allow. Still no dice, UPS won't honor that document.

Also I don't have a receipt from the shipper and I don't have the original packaging anymore. It's been a long time and the stuff got thrown out.

Anyway, I was just wondering if anyone has any tips on how to pursue this matter further, in order to get some of the money I lost back. I've never gone to small claims court before, but I'm off to research it a bit. Any helpful info here would be much appreciated. Thanks,

Jon

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Re: Experience w/ UPS claims/ small claims court?

Post by James Dawson » Mon Jan 19, 2004 1:10 pm

I am not sure about other states but South Carolina permits arbitration as a low costs means to settle matters and not tie up the courts.

In essence a group of attorneys serve as "judge." You write up your complaint (in brief) and the court will issue a subpoena and set a date. Here it is only $5 to file and $5 to have a sheriff serve the subpoena.

In my case, I was advised by an attorney I was working for and I wound up going against his partner-and winning!

The rules of evidence are pretty wide open. You explain your side of the case and present any evidence and they respond.

I would suspect that UPS wuld look at the cost of involving their attorneys and pay the insurance.

Personally, I never use UPS as I had a PRS set up in Penn. by a noted luthier and when the guitar arrived someone had taken it form the case and playe dit. The springs were popped off the tremelo and it was soaked in sweat.

I hope this helps!

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Re: Experience w/ UPS claims/ small claims court?

Post by andrew embassy » Mon Jan 19, 2004 1:51 pm

I had an MS-20 shipped to me and UPS cracked both of the side pannels... The shipper refunded the money (it really wasn't packed all that great, but still; there's a lot of force required to bash the package like that). Good luck, man.
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Re: Experience w/ UPS claims/ small claims court?

Post by soundguy » Mon Jan 19, 2004 1:56 pm

did ups come to inspect the packaging when you filed the claim? I have never been able to get anywhere without them first coming to inspect the package, at which point, unless it is totally destroyed they always conclude that the shipper sent it damaged.

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Re: Experience w/ UPS claims/ small claims court?

Post by kcrusher » Mon Jan 19, 2004 3:06 pm

Given all the info you're providing, you don't have much of a case.

First - it is NOT UPS's responsibility to ensure proper packaging. They state this in all their shipping documents. This is a major point that they will use against you.

Second - with no photos of the shipping material and no inspection by UPS after you received it, you're again fooked. You have nothing to show it was properly packed AND you've already stated info showing that it WASN'T properly packed. It is a minor point, the 3 ply vs. 2 ply cardboard, but they will use it against you.

All in all, your chances are slim, unless you get some solid evidence on your side -something showing the damage and that they would have had to be REALLY negligent (to the point that even proper packaging would not have prevented the damage) would help your case alot. You want to be able to show that the damage would have happened because of their negligence no matter how well it was packed.

Without that, or a very sympathetic judge, you're unlikely to win.
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Re: Experience w/ UPS claims/ small claims court?

Post by honkyjonk » Mon Jan 19, 2004 3:52 pm

They did come and inspect it, and took pictures. the only problem is they have the pictures. Maybe that's not a problem. If they're going to use those pictures against me and I'm going to try and use them against UPS.

I just wish I had taken my own pictures. At first it was kind of an on again off again thing, and after awhile I gave up and threw away the box. Then I started to think about it again and it made me madder and madder. So I picked up the case again. I've since written them several letters.

I have the tracking number, a web page printout of a UPS page that shows that the shipment was received and that I immediately filed a claim. I have that signed paper from the shipper if that means anything to a judge.

And I have a bashed sixty pount 4 track.

Maybe I'll look into arbitration.

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Re: Experience w/ UPS claims/ small claims court?

Post by spiral » Mon Jan 19, 2004 4:06 pm

When i was in college we took our landlord to court and won on a technicality. Make sure you take pictures of things you rent, use, send etc. If you are in the biz, buy a camera just for that. It will be worth it.

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Re: Experience w/ UPS claims/ small claims court?

Post by cyrusjulian » Mon Jan 19, 2004 4:10 pm

Wow, I feel for you bro. I actually just sold some stuff on ebay a few weeks back and when I was shipping them, I asked the lady what exactly the insurance covered. And right away, she said I should get it because some of the workers actually play football with some of the packages. I think you should call some manager or high ranking employee at UPS and threaten to report this to the Better Business Bureau or threaten to take legal action. Even though you might not win, maybe some manager will just say fuck it and give you your money instead of having to deal with the potential hassle of some guy calling the BBE. Ultimately it's all of us consumers who lose while fucking corporations end up with all the cash off of bullshit insurance policies.

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Re: Experience w/ UPS claims/ small claims court?

Post by black mariah » Mon Jan 19, 2004 4:30 pm

If you threatened UPS with legal action they would laugh at your ass, then hang up.

You do not have the original packaging. DO. FUCKING. NOT. EVER. THROW AWAY THINGS THAT COULD POSSIBLY BE USED AS EVIDENCE TO PROVE YOUR CASE. Stupid move, dude.

You have no pictures.

The packaging was insufficient, by your own admission. It is not UPS's responsibility to package things or monitor what things are packaged in.

How long has this been going on?

No, 9 out of 10 packages are no from eBay. eBay probably makes up a good sized portion of their shipping (my guess would be 3-5%), but nowhere near that much. In the case of eBay packages, unless the seller wants a nice fat negative then he's going to pursue the damage claim.

Anyway, think of what you'd be telling a judge and consider if you really want to do that. "Your honor, the item was sent in a box that wasn't good enough. I have no pictures or the original box to prove damage with, but I can assure you that it's UPS's fault."

I'm sorry to tell you this, but you're screwed.
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Re: Experience w/ UPS claims/ small claims court?

Post by robotboy75 » Mon Jan 19, 2004 9:05 pm

I don't really have anything too helpful to add to this but I do have a related story. I sold an 8-track tascam syncaset on ebay which had been working fine before. When it arrived, the buyer complained that one of the channels wasn't working and I filed the claim. The really frustrating thing about it was that I shipped through the UPS store (formerly Mail Boxes Etc). Each UPS store has a UPS account and so they become the shipper of record. Consequently, UPS will only discuss the claim or proceed with any kind of appeal through the UPS store (As if they are their own customer - really weird!!). Anyway, I felt bad and like I needed to be responsible for it so I refunded the money ($400) to the buyer and gave the UPS store a good talking to about being proactive with the appeal process. They ended up giving me $100 in compensation which sucks but at least it wasn't like I was paying them to break my shit. Arrgh. I feel for you.

Was the deck sold "as is"? Did you try to hold the seller responsible for this? Even though it sucked, I felt like I had to take the hit because I want to sell stuff in the future but also because I feel like its a shitty thing to do to someone. (I mean - the buyer is typically not in control of how well something is packed anyway). Anyway, good luck with it.

-Matt

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Re: Experience w/ UPS claims/ small claims court?

Post by wayne kerr » Mon Jan 19, 2004 9:16 pm

Anyway, I filed a claim. Denied. I refuted it. Denied again. They're immediate response to any claim, as I've learned from research, is to point the finger at isufficient packaging.
Welcome to the world of claims! This is called 'standard practice.'
The little emblem that says what grade cardboard it is, was on top of the box though, and in full view.


I'm not sure that's relevant. What's really important is the volume of the box relative to the volume of the item.
So I blame this on UPS because they should have never allowed the box to be shipped. They didn't even have to open it up to see that.
Good luck with that one! They process about 10,000,000 packages per day! Add to that the fact that most of the people they hire are uneducated, illiterate drug addicts!
I am the receiver of the package. Though it was my money that paid for isurance and shipping, UPS alway deals w/ claims through the shipper and will only refund money to the shipper.
Once again, welcome to the world of claims. UPS has no contract with you, only with the shipper. That is why they will only pay the shipper.
And they know damn well that 9 packages out of 10 are an ebay purchase where the receiver of the package has payed for the item, and the insurance and the shipping and the shipper already has his money so he's less likely to pursue the matter passionately.
Dude, no offense, but if you really think they give a flying fuck about that, I've got some land in Florida you might want to look at!
Anyway, I have a signed document from the shipper that I wrote up that says he gives me complete authority to pursue the claim, and that I paid for the shipping and insurance on the item, and that I should receive any claim money that a claim would allow. Still no dice, UPS won't honor that document.


Again, they CAN'T! They have no legal standing on which to make a refund to you. They have to pay any claims to the person who actually made the contract with them to ship the item.
Also I don't have a receipt from the shipper and I don't have the original packaging anymore. It's been a long time and the stuff got thrown out.
Sorry, but you're fucked.
Anyway, I was just wondering if anyone has any tips on how to pursue this matter further, in order to get some of the money I lost back
.

I would demand my money back from the guy you bought it from. He is responsible for making sure the item gets to you in one piece. He obviously didn't pack it very well. Good luck with that... does he live in your state by any chance?
I've never gone to small claims court before, but I'm off to research it a bit.
Don't waste your time. You have no claim against UPS. You DO have a legitimate claim against the moron you nought the unit from, and if he lives in your state, you can actually get a judgement against him and make him pay.

Good luck.

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Re: Experience w/ UPS claims/ small claims court?

Post by sarth » Tue Jan 20, 2004 12:35 am

Dude,

UPS will only deal with the shipper, maybe so should you.

Why ould you pay for broken merchandise?

Take it up with the guy who sold you the tape deck. Who I'm assuming, also packed it? Correctly or incorrectly.

-- Sarth

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Re: Experience w/ UPS claims/ small claims court?

Post by Roman Sokal » Tue Jan 20, 2004 1:14 am

sorry to hear about the mess. I ahve no advice to offer in this particular regard, only that in the past on this board I have stated my personal distaste for this organization- simply put, they are wankers and I will never use them again since things have gotten damaged many a time and the fact that their customs brokers are shifty and unpredicatable as ever. boycott UPS! (FedEx Ground come a close second...)

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Re: Experience w/ UPS claims/ small claims court?

Post by gyrofrog.com » Wed Jan 21, 2004 8:57 pm

Hope y'all don't mind the post jacking...

I just bought a combo organ via eBay. It was supposed to be delivered this morning but by the afternoon it hadn't shown up. I looked up the tracking number on the UPS web site and it said "damaged in transit." Does that, in fact, mean that UPS has admitted responsibility? Or will they still try the old "you-didn't-use-three-ply" shim-sham?

I wonder at what point it got damaged... It got all the way to the local distribution point before they updated it with "damaged in transit." Like maybe it was damaged early on, but they shipped it across the country anyway, and THEN decided they couldn't deliver it.

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Re: Experience w/ UPS claims/ small claims court?

Post by puffpastry » Wed Jan 21, 2004 9:35 pm

UPS almost never pays out claims. It's kind of a catch-22 if you think about it--"buy our insurance in case your package is damaged, but if it is, we're the ones who will determine whether or not we're at fault." If you think that they will ever admit guilt, you are sorely mistaken.

IMO their shipping insurance is a scam.

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