50s/60s Jazz Piano Sound

[hulahalau]

Good day:

I've been listening to Johnny Hartman's "I Just Dropped By to Say Hello," on Impulse, recorded in early 1960s, and the piano sound is very rolled-off on the high end, yet the sound is clear and not fuzzy, so that ithe piano sits well in the mix. The feeling is late-night bar ballad. A similar piano sound is on the Capitol two-disc compilation of Sinatra, where he is doing a demo of "One for my Baby (and One More for the Road)."

Anyone have some clues as to what the engineers did to get this sound. it just doesn't sound like EQ - in part because EQs at the time did not have the capability to make such drastic cuts. Is it a ribbon, which is then EQd down, or a dynamic mike like a SM-7 predecessor? I wnat to be able to do this - the last time I recorded piano we used KM-184s, and it was way too bright, even through my Sytek. Any suggestions for modern mikes/techniques?

[hapbeat]

likely a ribbon or U47, no eq at all. A fair amount of tube and tape compression. Even with a terrific mic (condenser), it will be hard to emulate the warmth, as everything in a modern signal path is so clean. The KM 84s, or even an 87 will emphasise the highs - so compensate as needed by mic placement more in mid range, and further from the hammers. You'll also probably need to degrade the signal - try throwing it out to a reel to reel and bringing it back on the return. if there's hiss you can clean it in a restoration program.

[forthorton]

Shouldn't be too hard to emulate. It's all in the piano and the player. I know on my piano, I can put as bright a mic as I want and it makes virtually no difference to the sound because those frequencies don't really exist on my piano. If you can get your piano to sound like that( and the player to play like that) in the room, then your 90% there.

Billy

[joel hamilton]

Use a dark mic, or rolloff some high end. Pay close attention to the actual LACK of a ton of low end in those recordings( piano). You described the elusive "presence without brightness" concept that is one of the most sought after resukts in recording history. If you do not have access to a 47 or a 44 or 77 or spaced 49's or 50's, try everything you have and A>B to those recordings as a reference. I have made astoundingly accurate "vintage" sounding piano recordings with a 58 behind an upright piano.

Sweet.

[dayvel]

I think you'll have to sample Hank Jones. And if you want a really warm tone, sample Cedar Walton.

[Cellotron]

Start with a great sounding well tuned piano. Track to tape. All instruments in the same fairly live room. Run through a tube pre - but don't use outboard compression. A single mic, (I'd go for a U47 or a U49) pulled fairly well BACK - give it a little more distance off of the strings than you would using more "modern" techniques.

Best regards,
Steve Berson

[hulahalau]

Thanks to all for the suggestions. Unfortunately, I have no U47 or 50, much less a Hank Jones. While piano touch is important, I think its the room and mike. I will try a variety of dynamics and ribbons, held well back from the piano, in a good room, definitely no compression (never in my thinking).

[MechaGodzilla]

Just a thought, I've had success micing pianos from underneath, just by setting a couple LDC's on pillows, on the floor below the piano. Maybe a little less direct placement would add to that 60's vibe? Or maybe even just one mic?


*shrug*

Peace,
A

[toddjal]

the best on those old recordings is when you hear the pianist singing along to their own solo. i love that. makes me think they didn't get their mics too close. you can just picture the guy leaning back and forth really getting into it.

[hulahalau]

Just a thought, I've had success micing pianos from underneath, just by setting a couple LDC's on pillows, on the floor below the piano. Maybe a little less direct placement would add to that 60's vibe? Or maybe even just one mic?
A

If I'm pulling the mikes back from the piano, I definitely would only use a single mike, since I'm not interested in getting an "image." I don't think i will use a LDC since most seem to have that high end lift that is exactly opposite of the effect that I want. I'm also going to experiment with older dynamics, bandwidth limited, and compare with the ribbon.

[Cellotron]

I don't think i will use a LDC since most seem to have that high end lift that is exactly opposite of the effect that I want. I'm also going to experiment with older dynamics, bandwidth limited, and compare with the ribbon.

I would definitely use an LDC and not a dynamic since this is how most of the studio's back in the day got the sound you are looking for. afaik they almost never would use a dynamic on a piano - if it wasn't an LDC it was a ribbon. Just use a darker mic in omni or figure 8 mode and get some more of the room in it to avoid the high end lift you're talking about. imho a dynamic pulled back will give you a really tiny sound on the piano.

Best regards,
Steve Berson

[hulahalau]

I would definitely use an LDC and not a dynamic since this is how most of the studio's back in the day got the sound you are looking for. afaik they almost never would use a dynamic on a piano - if it wasn't an LDC it was a ribbon. Just use a darker mic in omni or figure 8 mode and get some more of the room in it to avoid the high end lift you're talking about. imho a dynamic pulled back will give you a really tiny sound on the piano.

Best regards,
Steve Berson[/quote]

Thanks for the information. I will use a ribbon and LDC, and compare the tone.

[AGCurry]

Umm... why do you all think a large diaphragm is the way to go? Read Harvey Gerst. Although "you can record any source with any microphone",
small-diaphragm mics will do better with large sound sources (piano being one). Higher sensitivity (less mass to move) and better off-axis response.

There are many many ways to mic pianos, and by far most of them involve small-diaphragm condensors. Of course, placement is paramount.

[@?,*???&?]

I've done this a number of ways. A pair of AKG 414s has always yielded a fairly dark sound to begin with. Blending a tube mic (or a pair of them) further outside the piano is usually a cool thing to do too. Something like a Sony C37 could add some brighter tonality.

Think about the arrangement of the music. If it's a trio, your piano can be the focus. If it's a pop act with many instruments- especially guitars and vocals, the piano is going to eat up some valuable real estate in the sonic picture.

[hulahalau]

I've done this a number of ways. A pair of AKG 414s has always yielded a fairly dark sound to begin with. Blending a tube mic (or a pair of them) further outside the piano is usually a cool thing to do too. Something like a Sony C37 could add some brighter tonality.

Actually, I have a pair of 414 BULS, and on a different date recording a German Steinway, I was not really happy with that sound either, it was still too bright. Admittedly, they were about 18" away, but pulling away did not seem to help. Remember, Im trying to avoid a bright sound.

Anyway, I think i'll go try a ribbon. M260 first, then M160 next.