Audio Mastering Engineer with question for Mix Engineers

[Chris Graham Mastering]

Hey all, Chris Graham here. I'm a music mastering engineer out of Columbus, Oh.

Got a question for all you people out there in Tape Op land. I've been getting a lot of masters from artists who's mix engineers have compressed their master bus. I'm wondering how many of you by a show of hands give your clients mixes with master bus compression to get their approval on the mixes. If so, do you typically send that file to your audio mastering engineer, or send the uncompressed version?

[Nick Sevilla]

Hi Chris,

For me, whatever mix I give to the clients for listening is exactly the same mix the Mastering Engineer gets.

This whole bullshit of people doing "pseudo" mastering for a louder "reference" CD only to undo that before mastering, is just plain wrong, IMHO.

It ties the artists into a fake reference which is different than what the ME gets.

And then the poor ME has to "guess" WTF is going on. Too much room for error and miscommunication.

Cheers

[Chris Graham Mastering]

Good for you Nick! I think that's the way everyone should do, but I'm curious to hear from people who might disagree, and what their reasons for doing so are.

[fossiltooth]

I'm wondering how many of you by a show of hands give your clients mixes with master bus compression to get their approval on the mixes.

I give my clients mixes with master bus compression on because it sounds good that way, because it helps me get the sounds and balances I want quickly and without over-compressing individual tracks, because I don't want to be surprised by how much the mix will change when a few db of compression is applied, and because it's been a standard practice for decades.

I also put a limiter across the master bus when I'm ITB to bring the peak level up to -.4 db. This limits by 1, maybe 2 dB very occasionally, if at all.

This way, the reference mix is an appropriate volume, and the master mix has plenty of headroom if additional compression is really necessary. Also: they're the same damn mix, so there's no confusion.

Also, nice SEO'ing dude.

[Chris Graham Mastering]

Thanks for your reply fosiltooth, how many DB to you typically compress, and with what? What style of music do you typically work with?

Also, thanks brother! I'm learning.

[mwerden]

When I mix through a bus compressor it gets printed so there isn't really an uncompressed mix to listen to. Like Justin I'll also put a limiter on - for me it's partially about getting a ref up to level but also I find that mixes survive the mp3 encoding process better when they are on the louder side. I'm also only taking off the occasional dB here or there.

[A.David.MacKinnon]

I never mix with anything on the master bus but like the others I do use a limiter on the reference mix to get the level up to something comparable with what-ever the client will compare it to. It's never taking off more than a db or 2 and never really hitting all that often.
That mastering engineer gets my clean, unlimited mix. I've never had much of an issue between what the client hears during the mix process and the final master.

[ScottEvans]

I do pretty much what Justin does.

I use some 2bus compression for flavor and glue. Nothing new there.

I also flip a more aggressive "faux mastering" comp/limiter on and off pretty often while I'm mixing, to avoid surprises at mastering time. (where'd the snare go? why are the cymbals so loud and shitty?)

I give clients mixes with that limiter enabled. My reasons match Justin's: it sounds good, it sounds more like everything else the client is going to compare it with, it sounds more like the final product the client is going to get from the ME. It also makes it easier for me to a/b with records I like.

I deliver the ME two versions of each song:
1) Final comp/limiter not on (but yes, relatively gentle 2bus compressor still there, that's part of my mix)
2) Final comp/limiter on, but limiter disabled and level pulled down 12dB - so if the ME wants to start with the smashed version the band has been hearing, or at least hear what the band's heard, he/she can. But the peaks are still there and the ME can use whatever expensive/fancy peak limiting tools/techniques they like.

I explain all this to the band so they know what's going on.

This works okay for me. It's very different from the workflow I did 15 years ago, but mastering is pretty different now too.

To me, the other alternative is to say "trust me, this will sound really different and great after you get it back from the magic mastering guy." I've tried that a few times and I don't personally like it.

[ScottEvans]

Also, nice SEO'ing dude.

lolz. Yeah.

[Chris Graham Mastering]

Very cool guys. Scott, I'm the biggest fan of guys/gals who use your workflow. Having that limiter on there at least some of the time while mixing does help a ton to get an idea of what aspects of the mix will change when it's compressed in mastering. I run into problems with some people not doing that from time to time, sending me mixes with a snare 10 db above everything else or something intense like that. Issues that could have been avoided if the mix engineer would have experimented with a few db's of limiting on the mastering buss and heard what that did to the mix.

[Jesse Skeens]

I have no issues with artists doing some compression if it works with the track and also recommend light limiting to get a ref of how it will sound. Both can easily be printed without when needed. In electronic stuff the compression can be so integral to the sound it's almost required during mixing stage.

[Chris Graham Mastering]

I agree Jesse, unfortunately for me though, particularly with dance music, I sometimes get very very compressed/clipped music, not just light limitting. It's not too uncommon for me to encounter songs from musicians who self engineered and who aren't familiar with what a master bus even is. In this scenario, they tend to just be clipping the hell out of the summing engineer on their DAW. The oddest part of it- these are almost always from America, I never encounter it with projects from europe or elsewhere.

[Jesse Skeens]

I agree Jesse, unfortunately for me though, particularly with dance music, I sometimes get very very compressed/clipped music, not just light limitting. It's not too uncommon for me to encounter songs from musicians who self engineered and who aren't familiar with what a master bus even is. In this scenario, they tend to just be clipping the hell out of the summing engineer on their DAW. The oddest part of it- these are almost always from America, I never encounter it with projects from europe or elsewhere.

Well you're lucky then as I get it from everyone

And yes know what you mean, I asked someone to check to make sure their level had headroom the other day and they told me that itunes said it was -6 so was ok... problem is that means RMS

[Chris Graham Mastering]

I agree Jesse, unfortunately for me though, particularly with dance music, I sometimes get very very compressed/clipped music, not just light limitting. It's not too uncommon for me to encounter songs from musicians who self engineered and who aren't familiar with what a master bus even is. In this scenario, they tend to just be clipping the hell out of the summing engineer on their DAW. The oddest part of it- these are almost always from America, I never encounter it with projects from europe or elsewhere.

Well you're lucky then as I get it from everyone

And yes know what you mean, I asked someone to check to make sure their level had headroom the other day and they told me that itunes said it was -6 so was ok... problem is that means RMS

HAHAHAHA! That's hilarious. Kindred spirits, you and I. Love it.

[joninc]

i do the same like some on here - mix with some gentle mix buss compression (sometimes a few stages and tape) and apply a bit of L2 for reference level.

why the L2? clients used to complain mixes were too quiet and it was needless worrying. i give them a slightly boosted mix and no problems!

of course i take the L2 off for the mastering engineer to work with.

but... to throw 2 cents in...

i think you should get your mix AS CLOSE AS POSSIBLE to what you want to hear in the end and not be afraid to do what it takes to arrive there. most mixers i admire have the same philosophy.

(i am not talking about amateurs just starting out who are smashing the crap out of their mixes.)

i got to watch peter katis do some mixing and he applies subtle compression ALL OVER THE PLACE in MANY STAGES on individual elements as well as buss groups and the mix buss which hits a few comps/tape/peak limiter before being printed.

his mixes sound amazing IMHO and huge, not over compressed, very tasteful and natural.

there's not a whole lot of headroom left at this point because he has it so close to being "done".

so sure, it might not be leaving a lot for the mastering engineer to do. but that isn't the goal - the goal is to make amazing mixes. if it sounds great as is then the mastering engineer really doesn't have to do that much (and i suspect in the case of many pros like peter, they don't really do that much just some subtle overall shaping and some additional juice). it's more like a final stage of QC as well as sequencing, encoding etc...

read a bunch of tchad blake stuff too and i think he is very similar in that his final mixes are quite loud by the time they are heading to mastering.

so... i am not sure i buy the whole "NEVER COMPRESS OR LIMIT YOUR MIX BUSS THING - LEAVE IT TO THE M.E. - HE WILL BE BETTER AT IT THAN YOU" ...
that said, if you are just starting out and unsure, it's always better to print one with and without.