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GlowSounds
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Post by GlowSounds » Tue Oct 29, 2013 10:23 am

holidayhell I think you may be missing ubertar & my points a little. It's not really a matter of retro for retro's sake, or for exclusivity or coolness. Just an alternate way to connect and communicate things with other people

ubertar- I would love to meet up, however... I live on the west coast now as of July. Hmm... maybe there's something to all this moving out of B'klyn business :?

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holidayhell
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Post by holidayhell » Tue Oct 29, 2013 11:00 am

people produce music, film, art, books, etc. in only analog forms, that you would have to find in real, live, actual space
people making records (or cassettes-- they're cheaper, and easier to dupe in small numbers) with no digital files included, and no digital files or CDs for sale
It might even be considered uncool to talk about it online.
To be in on something that's not easily found by anyone with an internet connection restores the sense of coolness and mystery
the more successful stuff would mostly end up "selling out" and going digital
This doesn't mean that the way the work is produced is necessarily analog-- only that the final form is.
I missed nothing. This is the argument presented to me.

Why not put the effort and time into the creation instead of the exclusion? Make the art better.

Why also create more landfill waste pumping out cruddy cassettes?

And I'll say again how laughable it is with creation digital = okay but listening digital = bad. Not just elitist but hypocritical as well.
Last edited by holidayhell on Tue Oct 29, 2013 11:11 am, edited 3 times in total.

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ubertar
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Post by ubertar » Tue Oct 29, 2013 11:07 am

HH-

I never said I was advocating for this (though I do kind of like the idea) only that it's something that could possibly happen, and may be likely to happen given how everything is online these days and the coolness and excitement about the internet is starting to wear off.
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ubertar
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Post by ubertar » Tue Oct 29, 2013 11:13 am

holidayhell wrote:And I'll say again how laughable it is with creation digital = okay but listening digital = bad. Not just elitist but hypocritical as well.
It's not at all hypocritical. It's not about how things are created or even listened to, but how they're distributed. If they're distributed as analog, by necessity they will be listened to as analog-- that's a consequence, not a goal. If CDs could be uncopyable (this was tried, early on, and failed) digital listening would be fine for this. The idea is for something cultural to exist exclusively outside of the online world-- analog is just a means toward that end, not an end in itself.
get a hammered sound from guitar or bass! http://www.stringhammer.com
hand-made version to raise money for manufacturing... kind of like kickstarter, but you get a fully functional item now

Album!
https://paulrubenstein.bandcamp.com/album/one-eye-awake

GlowSounds
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Post by GlowSounds » Tue Oct 29, 2013 11:20 am

OK fine, impressive quote barrage. I guess I'm just saying that to me, this is more complex than simple digital vs. analog (to me, that binary discussion [pun intended] is such a drag and usually pretty pointless)

For what it's worth, I know plenty of musicians slaving away- literally spending hours of every day- doing all sort of digital music things (the usual stuff- promotion, social media, etc, etc).

And frankly it's not helping them put more time into creation, and it's not making art any better. Really far from it, actually (IMHO)

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Post by GlowSounds » Tue Oct 29, 2013 11:53 am

And just a side thought, since I'm knee deep in this now- don't forget that exclusivity has always been, and always will be a huge part of the music world. Whether it be Rihanna or Big Star, exclusivity is a currency that is traded on so often it is often not even noticed. Even true in the so-called indie world (i.e. egalitarian, art oriented, etc.).

Contribute to Kickstarter- get something exclusive. Heck, this forum trades on a certain amount of exclusivity. The ways are endless and they transcend old school/new school, analog/digital, grumpy old people/young whippersnappers...

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holidayhell
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Post by holidayhell » Tue Oct 29, 2013 1:17 pm

I have no idea why Rhianna or Big Star would be considered exclusive.

Kickstarter is the complete opposite of exclusive.

Unless its Cobain I can't recall any other artist saying they are reaching too many people.

There is an actual revolution taking place and all I hear is "Boy I wish I could go back to Factsheet Five. That's when cool meant cool".

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Post by Snarl 12/8 » Tue Oct 29, 2013 2:13 pm

This has always seemed very "underground" to me...

ftp://ftp.bunglefever.com/pub/

both the delivery medium (ftp server) and the music that's there. Bootlegs, outtakes, weird covers, outta print stuff (Mike Patton is quite the musical slut, not that there's anything wrong with that). This thing's been around for at least 10 years.
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Post by chris harris » Tue Oct 29, 2013 6:14 pm

I deleted my snarky response and will just say this: Most of the things you're talking about are already happening.

I'm not sure if it hasn't landed on your radar because it's TOO underground, or what. But, there are plenty of labels right now that only release vinyl or cassette tapes. There are plenty of bands who don't have Facebook pages. But, it is exactly what you suggest... It's multiple small, artistic, underground movements. It is that way by nature and by design. And, it will always remain that way. That's probably why you're not aware that it's already happening.

It's definitely interesting. I'm happy to participate in the movement. I have actually released multiple vinyl/cassette-only releases in the last few years. It's fun. And, some fans definitely gravitate towards that exclusivity. Forgive me for tossing out some advice that's primarily relevant to "children", but if you're in a young, touring rock band, playing good small venues in the U.S., you HAVE TO HAVE VINYL WITH YOU. Nobody at those shows gives a damn about your CDs. They already have your mp3s and listen to you on Spotify. If you put on a good show, and have some good looking merch that looks like some thought went into it, you'll sell some of it.

So, yeah, I do get the appeal of your idea. As someone who owns a record label, I also have to realize that the market for that type of ethic/aesthetic is substantially smaller than the market for vinyl/cassette AND digital downloads. Sometimes the internet sucks. And, I'm sure that given an opportunity, there are people and corporations out there who would drive it into the ground. It's just hard for me to imagine that there won't be some kid somewhere who can engineer a way around most of the inconveniences. It might drive more people to alternatives, like vinyl or whatever... But, it will still remain a very specialized and very small market.

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Post by percussion boy » Tue Oct 29, 2013 9:36 pm

...ah, never mind...(bites tongue)
Last edited by percussion boy on Tue Oct 29, 2013 9:46 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Post by chris harris » Tue Oct 29, 2013 9:43 pm

holidayhell wrote:Completely retro pointless bullshit. You have at your literal fingertips the ability to promote your art to anyone in the world and now it's not cool enough? More elitism and needless hoop jumping needs to be put in place to make something more "real"? Pointless.

It's hilarious how its okay and cool to still record everything digitally but you can't let anybody listen to it that way. How does keeping things easy for the artist yet hard for the audience make the art any better? It doesnt.

What's even more hilarious is this exact revolution thing is happening as you post and you dont know about it. I would write about it but then it wouldn't be cool. You can see the dilemma.
Finally getting around to reading this whole thread.

+1!!!

LOLOLOLZZZ!!!

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Post by chris harris » Tue Oct 29, 2013 9:47 pm

ubertar wrote:If CDs could be uncopyable (this was tried, early on, and failed) digital listening would be fine for this.
Whaaaa???? You know that it's quite simple to record a tape or record onto your computer and put it online, right?

ubertar wrote:The idea is for something cultural to exist exclusively outside of the online world-- analog is just a means toward that end, not an end in itself.
It's not even an effective means toward that end.

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Post by chris harris » Tue Oct 29, 2013 9:49 pm

Snarl 12/8 wrote:This has always seemed very "underground" to me...

ftp://ftp.bunglefever.com/pub/

both the delivery medium (ftp server) and the music that's there. Bootlegs, outtakes, weird covers, outta print stuff (Mike Patton is quite the musical slut, not that there's anything wrong with that). This thing's been around for at least 10 years.
Yep!

+1!!

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ubertar
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Post by ubertar » Wed Oct 30, 2013 5:26 am

Hey, Chris. If lots of people are doing this already, cool. That just proves my point. Though you are apparently talking about different people when you go on to say their fans already have their mp3s, etc. How is that vinyl/cassette only? Or are you saying they put out some of their catalog as vinyl/cassette only? Ok.

Again, as I've said already a few times in this thread, I'm not really advocating for this (though I like the idea). I'm just speculating on future events. There's a big difference between a few bands putting out some stuff that's analog-only and a movement toward an offline-only cultural stream that intentionally flies below the radar. The latter hasn't happened yet, and might never happen-- but it's fun to speculate.

Yes, it's not that hard to convert records or tapes to digital; I've done it plenty of times. But not everyone is equipped to do it, and people who are into the artists who do this from an ideological standpoint rather than just exclusivity will likely respect the intentions of the artists, or be shunned by fans who do-- it becomes a community value system.

It sounds like these bands you're talking about are using the exclusivity aspect of this as a marketing tool, which is a side thing but probably part of what will drive what I'm talking about, but is still a side thing. The subversive part of this whole thing comes from being off the grid, like having a solar house or growing your own food, in a way-- a flawed analogy, but hopefully illustrative.

But you still miss the point when you use words like "merch", and the word "market" appears three times in one paragraph. Ick. I need to take a shower after reading that.
get a hammered sound from guitar or bass! http://www.stringhammer.com
hand-made version to raise money for manufacturing... kind of like kickstarter, but you get a fully functional item now

Album!
https://paulrubenstein.bandcamp.com/album/one-eye-awake

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Post by dfuruta » Wed Oct 30, 2013 5:42 am

I've been thinking about this quite a lot, lately. There's certainly something lost with easy accessibility - having to work to find a release makes one's connection stronger and the work seem like less of a consumable. I don't think you go far enough, though. If you really want to avoid the consumer culture around digital music tiny, money-losing releases are the only way to go; the editions ought to be small enough that the artist can have a personal relationship with every person who acquires it. Probably no label would be willing to lose money on each release, so it would have to be diy.

I am planning to start doing this with my own music in a year or so.

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