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chris harris
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Post by chris harris » Wed Oct 30, 2013 8:25 am

ubertar wrote:If this happens, it will probably start among a small community of artists who are doing something that doesn't exist now. It won't be rock, but rock may be one of its influences. It won't be individuals or bands... it will take a community, and a new form of music. An individual or a band here and there will not be enough to gain traction, and if it's the same kind of music that's online, it won't mean anything. And we're not talking about just a new style of music, but something really different, that doesn't fit into the categories we have now.

And no, I don't mean my music. Though I'd be happy if this were to happen and the new form was microtonal (and also not just intonation). That's pretty unlikely, though, at least anytime soon (or in my lifetime).
It's adorable that you're still taking the "if this happens" position about something that's already happening, and has been for years. OF COURSE it's only a small number of artists who embrace this paradigm. That's all it will ever be. Anything more widespread would (by definition) not be "underground".

Maybe you can clarify how many artists constitute a "movement" and how few of them are required for the movement to remain "underground".

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Post by ubertar » Wed Oct 30, 2013 8:30 am

MSE, I'm imagining a future where the internet has been corporatized to a degree where it's very difficult or impossible to do what you're doing now. That may or may not happen, but it seems to be moving in that direction. If that happens, that's when an offline movement would take place. As things stand now, if you sell things only through your own site, you'll reach far fewer people than if you sign up with an online distribution company. As these companies make deals with companies like Facebook, and those companies in turn control more and more of what the people who use them see, your site will become more and more invisible, to where you may as well be offline and have nothing to do with any of that. In order to get heard, the big guys will have to take their cut, on their terms, which will become worse and worse for artists as the noose grows tighter. Imagine then, an entire new genre of music that exists entirely offline, so that the big guys don't get any piece of it.

All of this is entirely speculative. I don't know if it will happen. It's just a possible future, and as I said earlier, I'm exploring it in a science-fiction kind of way. It's hilarious how this has irked some people, and it just goes to show who has the most invested in the status quo.
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Post by chris harris » Wed Oct 30, 2013 8:32 am

It's pretty disingenuous to paint this as art vs. commerce when it's really about you just not liking current music and where the internet is going.

And, to paint my disagreement with your position as a tacit endorsement of what you see as the opposite position is pretty amateurish as far as arguing goes.

I don't even really disagree with most of your criticism of the internet.

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Post by ubertar » Wed Oct 30, 2013 8:44 am

chris harris wrote:It's adorable that you're still taking the "if this happens" position about something that's already happening, and has been for years. OF COURSE it's only a small number of artists who embrace this paradigm. That's all it will ever be. Anything more widespread would (by definition) not be "underground".

Maybe you can clarify how many artists constitute a "movement" and how few of them are required for the movement to remain "underground".
If you think this is already happening, I don't think you know what "this" means. It's not simply about putting stuff out analog-only. There's a broader vision here, and it also relies on the "above-ground" world taking a turn for the worse that is in progress now but is not inevitable. And if it's just rock bands or other traditional artists doing this, it doesn't mean much, I don't think.

Maybe "underground" isn't quite the right word. But it's probably the closest we've got. It's not about the size of the movement, but of its import. Imagine a new form of music that resonates with people the way rock did in its infancy, whose practitioners steadfastly keep it out of the online world. Maybe it would have the difficulty of, for example, bebop, so not just anyone could do it-- that would keep it within a community so that it wouldn't be so hard to keep it offline. There would be leaks, to be sure.
get a hammered sound from guitar or bass! http://www.stringhammer.com
hand-made version to raise money for manufacturing... kind of like kickstarter, but you get a fully functional item now

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https://paulrubenstein.bandcamp.com/album/one-eye-awake

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Post by ubertar » Wed Oct 30, 2013 8:58 am

chris harris wrote:It's pretty disingenuous to paint this as art vs. commerce when it's really about you just not liking current music and where the internet is going.

And, to paint my disagreement with your position as a tacit endorsement of what you see as the opposite position is pretty amateurish as far as arguing goes.

I don't even really disagree with most of your criticism of the internet.
Okay. But you do always seem quick to defend the status quo of the "music biz", whether it's Spotify or whatever, and you do seem to be strongly focused on the $ side of things.

I'll admit that some of this inevitably springs from my own taste and how it applies to what I see going on. Of course it does. But it also comes from looking at history and how trends and art forms rise and fall. Rock won't last forever. Some might argue it's already dead, or at least that it's peaked. It will likely continue on just as jazz and blues and folk and other styles of music that keep going but don't have the same impact on culture as they once did. It's fun to play and listen to. I don't think it's providing anyone a new perspective on reality. That's a tall order, I admit. But any art form comes from a particular view of the world, and usually at first that view is in some way shocking yet at the same time is a better fit with how others see the world, and it catches on until the world changes and it's time for a new representation. I think rock has run its course in this regard. Hiphop filled the gap, for some people at least (I'm not among them). I think that has run its course as well. That's not to say they won't keep going and being wildly popular and monetarily successful. Only that they're not as artistically vital as they once were. Impressionist painting was revolutionary at the time... then it became the institution... then it became passe. It's an unescapable cycle, with the exception of enduring cultural traditions (Hindustani classical music, for example).
get a hammered sound from guitar or bass! http://www.stringhammer.com
hand-made version to raise money for manufacturing... kind of like kickstarter, but you get a fully functional item now

Album!
https://paulrubenstein.bandcamp.com/album/one-eye-awake

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Post by MoreSpaceEcho » Wed Oct 30, 2013 9:10 am

ubertar wrote: It's hilarious how this has irked some people, and it just goes to show who has the most invested in the status quo.
c'mon, there was no reason for that.
ubertar wrote:Imagine a new form of music that resonates with people the way rock did in its infancy
there's probably plenty of teenagers who like dubstep as much as i liked metal when i was a kid.

there's plenty of people making non-traditional rock music out there.
whose practitioners steadfastly keep it out of the online world.
but why? why bother? just so you can feel like you're subversive? making the music you want to make is subversive enough.

i just don't see "the online world" as some big evil monster. it's allowing us to have this conversation right now in almost real time. we're all in different cities. would life be awesomer if we were having this discussion by hand writing letters to each other? i await your reply in a week or so...

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Post by ubertar » Wed Oct 30, 2013 9:35 am

MoreSpaceEcho wrote:
ubertar wrote: It's hilarious how this has irked some people, and it just goes to show who has the most invested in the status quo.
c'mon, there was no reason for that.
I think the "fuck off" warranted that.
MoreSpaceEcho wrote:
ubertar wrote:Imagine a new form of music that resonates with people the way rock did in its infancy
there's probably plenty of teenagers who like dubstep as much as i liked metal when i was a kid.

there's plenty of people making non-traditional rock music out there.
I don't think this is about how much something is enjoyed, or how popular it is. It's something more profound, but also more elusive... we get into a discussion about what makes "great" or "important" art, and is there even such a thing. I'm not much of a Billy Joel fan, but I think he had it right when he said, "Everybody's talking about the new sound, but it's still rock and roll to me". It's just variations on the same ideas. It's not groundbreaking. It's the difference between designing a new style of clothes versus inventing something that replaces clothes, making the whole idea of clothes obsolete. Okay, so I'm exaggerating a bit. :)
MoreSpaceEcho wrote:
whose practitioners steadfastly keep it out of the online world.
but why? why bother? just so you can feel like you're subversive? making the music you want to make is subversive enough.

i just don't see "the online world" as some big evil monster. it's allowing us to have this conversation right now in almost real time. we're all in different cities. would life be awesomer if we were having this discussion by hand writing letters to each other? i await your reply in a week or so...
I don't see it that way either. But it could potentially go that way, and there are people actively trying to make it that way. There have been from the beginning (AOL, MSN, Yahoo) and they've so far been unsuccessful. But the newer companies are more clever at it, and the movement has been incremental and insidious. It's not inevitable, but they're not going to stop trying, and the new ones that come up will learn from those who fail.
get a hammered sound from guitar or bass! http://www.stringhammer.com
hand-made version to raise money for manufacturing... kind of like kickstarter, but you get a fully functional item now

Album!
https://paulrubenstein.bandcamp.com/album/one-eye-awake

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Post by holidayhell » Wed Oct 30, 2013 9:41 am

ubertar wrote:MSE, I'm imagining a future where the internet has been corporatized to a degree where it's very difficult or impossible to do what you're doing now. That may or may not happen, but it seems to be moving in that direction. If that happens, that's when an offline movement would take place. As things stand now, if you sell things only through your own site, you'll reach far fewer people than if you sign up with an online distribution company. As these companies make deals with companies like Facebook, and those companies in turn control more and more of what the people who use them see, your site will become more and more invisible, to where you may as well be offline and have nothing to do with any of that. In order to get heard, the big guys will have to take their cut, on their terms, which will become worse and worse for artists as the noose grows tighter. Imagine then, an entire new genre of music that exists entirely offline, so that the big guys don't get any piece of it.

All of this is entirely speculative. I don't know if it will happen. It's just a possible future, and as I said earlier, I'm exploring it in a science-fiction kind of way. It's hilarious how this has irked some people, and it just goes to show who has the most invested in the status quo.
The reason it irks me is because it's so idiotic. It's an argument truly flawed in it's logic. I truly don't get any point or tangent you put out there, not that you are even putting out there anything of real substance.

It reminds me of all those "I NOW have the answer" conversations being had the first times I tried weed.

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Post by ubertar » Wed Oct 30, 2013 9:56 am

It's really not an argument, any more than a science-fiction novel is an argument. It's just speculation on something that might happen based on the way things are going (though Chris will tell you that it IS happening).

And yes, it's a lot like those stoned, high school or early college conversations... that's all it's meant to be. If that offends you, so be it.

The first three words of the first post in this thread are, "I can imagine". Not "THIS IS THE FUTURE!!!1!". It was meant to spark a discussion, and it has certainly done that.
get a hammered sound from guitar or bass! http://www.stringhammer.com
hand-made version to raise money for manufacturing... kind of like kickstarter, but you get a fully functional item now

Album!
https://paulrubenstein.bandcamp.com/album/one-eye-awake

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Post by holidayhell » Wed Oct 30, 2013 10:03 am

I agree with Chris. I also said this dreamy "underground" scene is happening now. It's not my problem you don't run across it cause you are too above.

You are spouting fantasy not science fiction.

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Post by MoreSpaceEcho » Wed Oct 30, 2013 10:09 am

ubertar wrote:I think the "fuck off" warranted that.
well yeah, fair enough. but i really don't think chris is writing as if he's a captain of industry or something. if he's focused on the monetary aspects, well, he's running a label. that shit costs money. pressing records is expensive. i doubt the dude goes to sleep on a pile of 100s.
It's just variations on the same ideas. It's not groundbreaking.
but EVERYTHING is variations on the same ideas. it's all just notes arranged in horizontal and vertical fashion. early rock and roll was all just the same old blues changes. how many bebop tunes were based on ii V I?

as far as i can see from my perch here mastering records, there's plenty of younger (or not) bands fusing disparate elements together in innovative ways. just cause you (or most people) haven't heard them doesn't mean it's not happening.

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Post by chris harris » Wed Oct 30, 2013 10:22 am

I'm not visionary enough to even comprehend this. Better consult that legendary visionary, Billy Joel.

"Dubstep is still rock & roll."
- Billy Joel

I stand corrected.

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Post by ubertar » Wed Oct 30, 2013 10:31 am

holidayhell wrote:I agree with Chris. I also said this dreamy "underground" scene is happening now. It's not my problem you don't run across it cause you are too above.

You are spouting fantasy not science fiction.
Heh. I'm not too above. I live under a rock. I admit that. You're the one playing the "I know something you don't know" card.

On the one hand you say this is happening now, and other you say it's fantasy. Which is it?
get a hammered sound from guitar or bass! http://www.stringhammer.com
hand-made version to raise money for manufacturing... kind of like kickstarter, but you get a fully functional item now

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Post by ubertar » Wed Oct 30, 2013 10:37 am

chris harris wrote:I'm not visionary enough to even comprehend this. Better consult that legendary visionary, Billy Joel.

"Dubstep is still rock & roll."
- Billy Joel

I stand corrected.
Lol. For real-- I'm laughing. This was funny. I did say I'm not a fan. But he had a point. Small stylistic changes get heralded as something completely new. Sure, some styles represent greater changes than others, but most of what I hear out there (and admittedly I live under a rock, but no one has yet presented evidence to the contrary) doesn't do anything new much beyond the surface level. Maybe my standards for what constitutes something really new are too high.
get a hammered sound from guitar or bass! http://www.stringhammer.com
hand-made version to raise money for manufacturing... kind of like kickstarter, but you get a fully functional item now

Album!
https://paulrubenstein.bandcamp.com/album/one-eye-awake

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Post by ubertar » Wed Oct 30, 2013 10:47 am

MoreSpaceEcho wrote:but EVERYTHING is variations on the same ideas. it's all just notes arranged in horizontal and vertical fashion. early rock and roll was all just the same old blues changes. how many bebop tunes were based on ii V I?

as far as i can see from my perch here mastering records, there's plenty of younger (or not) bands fusing disparate elements together in innovative ways. just cause you (or most people) haven't heard them doesn't mean it's not happening.
Maybe my standards are just too high, or the changes are just too incremental and slow for me. The kinds of differences I'd like to see are not the difference between blues and rock, or jazz and blues but more like the difference between traditional Burmese music and central African music or Australian Aboriginal music and the Western Romantic period. We've come far afield from the original discussion, but that's ok. There are all kinds of different ways of putting together notes, and it's not all common practice theory. And just fusing together elements from different sources isn't enough either-- I'm not interested in a stew-- I like a melting pot-- borrow the concepts and fuse them at that level, rather than taking the outward forms or complete elements and putting them together. I hope that makes sense.
get a hammered sound from guitar or bass! http://www.stringhammer.com
hand-made version to raise money for manufacturing... kind of like kickstarter, but you get a fully functional item now

Album!
https://paulrubenstein.bandcamp.com/album/one-eye-awake

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