What are some of the most "poorly engineered" albu

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ricey
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Post by ricey » Mon Oct 31, 2011 5:03 am

timh wrote:has no one mentioned Harvest yet?! the first time i heard that album i was just confused the whole time. i mean...when you can hear Neil step up to the mic mid-way through the second word of "Are You Ready For the Country?" what was that? and everything's all weirdly hard-panned and what not. i mean...a lot of that stuff adds character and ive grown to LOVE it, but it was a little weird at first.
now my interest is piqued - that's one of the albums i grew up with, and i haven't heard some of those tracks since i was a teenager 30 years ago. fascinates me when i go back to a record i lived with as a kid and the mixes have NOTHING to do with how i remember them. i pretty much destroyed my memory of how Bowie and Eno's "Heroes" sounds by listening to that recently. my memory is DB's voice loud and clear, right on top of the mix. how wrong i was, they're pretty "ambient". so obviously my sonic memory is the sum of maybe 80 hearings in a row (i would do that), and then never returning to the thing.

that epiphany has changed the way i mix vocals. if the song is a good one, we'll listen again and again until we've constructed the whole tune in our heads, we're able to sing along at that point, after repeated listening. i think a well-written and performed tune will drive people to listen again until they've "filled in the blanks"
(Also important to note is that "Heroes" has the lyrics printed on the album).

how does one mix a song to draw people in like that? or is it solely the responsibility of the song/performance? i think the existence of printed lyrics on the product had a hand in how low you could get away with mixing the vocal.

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Post by AnalogousGumdropDecoder » Mon Dec 12, 2011 12:16 pm

Sigh...

Only recording engineers could gripe about Electric Ladyland and Harvest.
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Post by Snarl 12/8 » Mon Dec 12, 2011 12:30 pm

I wish people talking about old records (Hendrix, etc.) would say what version they're talking about. Original vinyl through a real stereo or some fucked up remix/remaster on CD, or 128kbps MP3 on earbuds.

I think the medium of delivery can make a big difference on perceived awesomeness (or lack thereof) especially when shit is being played back on technology that was inconceivable at the time of tracking.

Yes, I believe knowing the ultimate medium of recording/mastering and playback can even affect tracking/arrangement decisions which wouldn't even be able to be readdressed in a remix/remaster situation.
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Post by AnalogousGumdropDecoder » Mon Dec 12, 2011 9:46 pm

Snarl 12/8 wrote:I wish people talking about old records (Hendrix, etc.) would say what version they're talking about. Original vinyl through a real stereo or some fucked up remix/remaster on CD, or 128kbps MP3 on earbuds.

I think the medium of delivery can make a big difference on perceived awesomeness (or lack thereof) especially when shit is being played back on technology that was inconceivable at the time of tracking.

Yes, I believe knowing the ultimate medium of recording/mastering and playback can even affect tracking/arrangement decisions which wouldn't even be able to be readdressed in a remix/remaster situation.
I totally agree, and have been trying to make that point with Husker Du (on vinyl).

There's also a matter of aesthetics. Sometimes immaculate engineering with tons of clarity is just absolutely not appropriate, and thus "good engineering" actually becomes "bad engineering." Who wants to hear the Velvet Underground & Nico in 5.1 with tons of separation, and why?

Neil Young is all about the ramshackle playing, the loose vibe, and general rickety qualities the music displays. His production and engineering, especially when David Briggs is involved, is absolutely appropriate to what it is that he does... thus "good engineering."

I disagree with whoever was saying that Electric Ladyland was not an engaging, engulfing experience. Even on my CD, it's a beautiful sounding record that's bursting with creativity. If all those needles were in the black, the panning were "tasteful," and there were no rough edges, it wouldn't be the masterpiece that it is.

A lot of people criticize Loveless by My Bloody Valentine for being murky and the drums (drum machines?) sounding tiny. However the band were notorious for their love of intense volume levels; and if you slap the record on, crank it up to eleven, and let the sound wash over you, and you're still scrutinizing the drum sound, you have missed the entire point. Besides, how could that wall of guitars sound so huge if the drums weren't tiny by comparison?

"Best" and "worst" are relative and highly subjective. I like to think of the "best" engineering as engineering that sonically captures the spirit of the music, and that's not always about using the equipment for what it's "supposed" to be used for and making things sound like they're "supposed" to sound.
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Post by themagicmanmdt » Tue Dec 13, 2011 2:12 pm

Snarl 12/8 wrote:I wish people talking about old records (Hendrix, etc.) would say what version they're talking about. Original vinyl through a real stereo or some fucked up remix/remaster on CD, or 128kbps MP3 on earbuds.

I think the medium of delivery can make a big difference on perceived awesomeness (or lack thereof) especially when shit is being played back on technology that was inconceivable at the time of tracking.

Yes, I believe knowing the ultimate medium of recording/mastering and playback can even affect tracking/arrangement decisions which wouldn't even be able to be readdressed in a remix/remaster situation.
Totally agree. In my case, I've gone through a few pressings - last one of EL I snagged was a german Deutch Grammophon/Polydor pressing early 70's. Heard every lick of hiss. It was fantastic. Hendrix was flying around in 3D. I was still just annoyed.
AnalogousGumdropDecoder wrote: "Best" and "worst" are relative and highly subjective. I like to think of the "best" engineering as engineering that sonically captures the spirit of the music, and that's not always about using the equipment for what it's "supposed" to be used for and making things sound like they're "supposed" to sound.
This is the biggest point of engineering and, well, art in general. I'm with you. Electric Ladyland, however, doesn't take me to Electric Ladyland. No matter how straight or stoned I may be, I just get a bunch of swirling madness. Perhaps that's definitely where Hendrix was - full bloom, the electric cowboy. The songs are great. The performances are great. When I hear it, I just get annoyed.

To back mention, however, "Piper At The Gates Of Dawn" is a travesty to listen to in mono. The stereo is ALL the fun. That's the right kind of madness, methinks. The landscapes create a sonic wonderland - forests with strange birds squawking, etc... it adds atmosphere, creates something new.

However, that's what I feel didn't happen with EL - nothing new was created - it's just 'cool swirling', in a way, getting cosmic with panning drums L and R... but not really *envoking* anything through it. Now, a flying panned Hendrix solo is bitchin' in general. 'Axis' is fantastically done. Not to mention 'Voodoo Chile' on EL sounds fantastic. But, as I mentioned... go to crank 'Crosstown Traffic' so that the drums and piano are rocking good, and your ears are sheared off by the kazoo. 'House Burning Down' is one of my favorite Hendrix songs, but the sound of all the overdubs of vocals and guitar solos stick out SO FAR removed of the band playing the core take, that the sense of believable 'whoa' is easily seen through the idea of adding more and more in the studio, not really using engineering to produce something that unites the track.

So, just kinda further expose'ing, at least my own viewpoint, that I'm distinguishing amazing bitchin' songs through the guise of 'what conveys it the best?', and hearing a bunch of non-cohesive tones, overdubs and heavy handed mixes is, to me, not a transporting experience.

That, and hearing Kramer sell his plugin packs along with his soul is pretty funny.
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Post by Brian » Tue Dec 13, 2011 5:06 pm

So, what I'm hearing is that if you come to listen to an album with preconceptions of why they did what they did and to what end they did it, you will be disappointed if it's what you surmised ion your post.
Did I get that right?
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Post by AnalogousGumdropDecoder » Wed Dec 14, 2011 4:26 pm

themagicmanmdt wrote:
Snarl 12/8 wrote:
That, and hearing Kramer sell his plugin packs along with his soul is pretty funny.
I had no idea he had plugin packs. Weird. Have you seen that infomercial that used to run a few years ago with Roger Daltrey hocking the 60s nostalgia CD box sets? He says lots of corny things like "I call that a bargain!" Pretty amazing. Why sell your soul when you can sell Pete Townshend's?
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Post by the finger genius » Thu Dec 15, 2011 2:26 pm

AnalogousGumdropDecoder wrote: Husker Du keeps coming up, and I keep insisting that those albums sound AMAZING on vinyl. I'm probably the only person who believes this.
Zen Arcade was one of the first CDs I ever heard (I borrowed it from the Library, then purchased it soon after.) I thought music was supposed to sound like that for the longest time. I still like it.
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Post by vvv » Thu Dec 15, 2011 4:01 pm

Early Gang of Four is pretty weird, especially the drum sounds.

I hated that stuff for a long time, for that reason. Now I play inna band where Go4 is a big influence.

(BTW, their last record is a fave of the year for me.)
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Post by cgarges » Thu Dec 15, 2011 11:11 pm

themagicmanmdt wrote:To back mention, however, "Piper At The Gates Of Dawn" is a travesty to listen to in mono. The stereo is ALL the fun. That's the right kind of madness, methinks. The landscapes create a sonic wonderland - forests with strange birds squawking, etc... it adds atmosphere, creates something new.
Are you serious? There are entire parts left off the stereo version of Piper. I grew up listening to the stereo version and had not heard the mono version until the re-release a couple of years ago. I couldn't believe what I was hearing. I thought the mono record was SO MUCH better. It seemed so much more "realized" to me. And this was a record that I had absolutely LOVED all those years, too.

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Post by 1grex » Sat Dec 17, 2011 8:46 am

Primus: Pork Soda, Tales From The Punchbowl, Brown Album
KISS: Hotter Than Hell, ALIVE! II, Animalize, Crazy Nights, ALIVE! III
Creed: their first 3 albums (this is not just b/c Creed is not my bag; in fact there are many "modern rock" albums from this era that have that bad ProToolsy sound))
Smashing Pumkins: agree that Mellon Collie was a sonic letdown compared to Siamese Dream
that's all I can think of right now...

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Post by AnalogousGumdropDecoder » Sat Dec 17, 2011 10:53 am

the finger genius wrote:
AnalogousGumdropDecoder wrote: Husker Du keeps coming up, and I keep insisting that those albums sound AMAZING on vinyl. I'm probably the only person who believes this.
Zen Arcade was one of the first CDs I ever heard (I borrowed it from the Library, then purchased it soon after.) I thought music was supposed to sound like that for the longest time. I still like it.
Music is supposed to sound like that. Sometimes.
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Post by AnalogousGumdropDecoder » Sat Dec 17, 2011 11:02 am

1grex wrote:Primus: Pork Soda, Tales From The Punchbowl, Brown Album
KISS: Hotter Than Hell, ALIVE! II, Animalize, Crazy Nights, ALIVE! III
Creed: their first 3 albums (this is not just b/c Creed is not my bag; in fact there are many "modern rock" albums from this era that have that bad ProToolsy sound))
Smashing Pumkins: agree that Mellon Collie was a sonic letdown compared to Siamese Dream
that's all I can think of right now...
It's been a while since I've listened to The Brown Album, but to my recollection it has some pretty killer sounds on it.... drums in particular. Much better than what I've heard of their newest album.

All KISS albums sound bad, and there are many reasons for it.

Mellon Collie is sonically hit-and-miss. After that, the band's studio sound just gets weaker and weaker.
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Post by AnalogousGumdropDecoder » Sat Dec 17, 2011 11:04 am

vvv wrote:Early Gang of Four is pretty weird, especially the drum sounds.

I hated that stuff for a long time, for that reason. Now I play inna band where Go4 is a big influence.

(BTW, their last record is a fave of the year for me.)
I think early Gang of Four sounds brilliant! Mid-period Gang of Four, on the other hand...
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Post by vvv » Sat Dec 17, 2011 4:17 pm

I agree.

However, listen to Return the Gift; I think the sound is vastly improved, and for the better. The performances, the sequence are different, of course, and not always improved, but the recordings are, what makes 'em easier for the uninitiated to appreciate. Original members, too.
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