"WORLD CLASS" jazz recording

[2db]

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I can't figure out what is missing in the recording chain or what needs to be added to make a World Class sound happen.

It stared out a little brittle so we mixed it to a 2 track to warm it up then recorded back to digital-DAD.

Now its warm but just doesn't have that sheen like I hear on todays recordings.

What is the secret?!?!

Sonny Who
http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fu ... D=66344136
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[dokushoka]

Jazz is difficult to record. I can't really speak directly to your frustrations without more specifics, but my experience has shown me that the room is very important. I think having the players in the same room with good sight lines is really essential for the genre. With jazz, I generally try to minimize complicated signal chains. For piano, I have found that I like the sound of just two mics (one over the top end and one over the bottom). For bass, the Royer R121 is wonderful and is often all that is required. On drums, I like the sound of a stereo ribbon overhead. This mellows all the cymbal work. I will add spot mics (kick and snare) as necessary. Horns, generally a ribbon with exceptions being LD tube mics. Vocals are always a wildcard, of course. I like to toss up stereo room mics, too. Very important, IMO.

From there, I just try to use the best preamps possible and record to 96khz or 192khz. We are getting a dolby sr unit for the Studer, so hopefully that will make tape a viable storage medium for dynamic jazz.

[ampguy]

If you're looking to get this kind of jazz tone, I can help. How are you recording your jazz now?

http://www.tedm.com/mp3s/jazz1009.mp3

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I can't figure out what is missing in the recording chain or what needs to be added to make a World Class sound happen.

It stared out a little brittle so we mixed it to a 2 track to warm it up then recorded back to digital-DAD.

Now its warm but just doesn't have that sheen like I hear on todays recordings.

What is the secret?!?!

Sonny Who
http://bonxo.com/detail.php?id=VNE388


.

[Professor]

As I listened I heard lots of things I would do differently if it were a group I were recording but that doesn't necessarily mean that is the way to the sound you're looking for, just a way to the sound that I would look for with that particular group. Of course, the thing has already been tracked, mixed and even bounced around to different media to try and alter the sound.
To be honest, I'm a little confused with the descriptions of what you want vs. the techniques. The group sounds like more of a 'modern' jazz sound, you're looking for a 'sheen' over the top which to me usually implies brightness to some extent, but then the choice of bouncing through tape seems contradictory. But I didn't hear the track before the tape, so maybe it was thin and anemic and the tape treatment successfully put back in some kind of lower-mid thing you felt you were missing.

But for the final 'sheen' you're seeking now, is it something you are hoping to achieve in a mastering type of process or will you be reworking the mix a little to find it?
Beyond that, it's really the difficult part of engineering that you're up against. Buying gear, setting up mics, getting levels, even creating mixes is relatively easy - but translating the verbal requests or the sounds you hear in your head into specific pieces of gear and settings on knobs, switches and menus is really where it gets difficult. Can you give us more specifics about what you are hearing, what you're not hearing, what the 'sheen' means to you in this context?
I could tell you how I would track it, but your tracking is already done, and I don't know what gear you have anyway. I could tell you how I would adjust the EQ on the overheads, the bass and the sax, but that's my taste and not yours. I could talk about compressor settings, but again, you might not want to rework the mix at this point. Could the reverb settings be tweaked with something a little brighter and slightly more metallic sounding - maybe, but that might not be where you are aiming.

-Jeremy

[trumpetgunk]

Comments no longer relate to posted track as link has changed...

What's jazz to one person is another's pop...

[2db]

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Rather then trying to fix anything on that recording at this point won't happen. Just because we won't be using that tune on this next project.

I would like to start a thread showing what equipment I am thinking of using on our new project and do a step by step approach getting advise as I go.


This is kind of what I am thinking of maybe using to mic the next project.

Grand Piano-pair of UMT70S
Sax-C12VR or AEA R84
Flute-U87
Guitar-direct
Upright Bass-441 and U87
Drums-OH 414 or 480 pair or UMT70S, snare 201, toms 421, kick RE20

Grace and Precision True 8 pre amps

I will be better able to put your thoughts into practice as I start this new project with my band. Hope you will stick in there with me.

Regards
jim

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[Professor]

That certainly seems like a healthy microphone selection for the kind of recording you're doing and as long as you like the tone of each particular mic & instrument combination then that's a great start. It's kinda useless to say what I've used on similar instruments because so much depends on the tone of each particular instrument played by that player in that room on that day.
But it is interesting to read the other opinions on the specific sounds of your recording. I found the bass to sound quite the opposite from trumpetgunk up there. I thought it sounded somewhat scooped in the low mids and felt I was getting some lows (though not as much as I'd have going) and lots of attack, at least much more than I usually care to have. Also I didn't find the recording to sound over compressed either. I heard the possibility for reworking the compression, but overall the tracks seemed kind of overly mellow, and I thought a bit of light 2-bus compression & EQ could have brought things together nicely. I definitely heard a few spots where the sax player wandered a bit away from the microphone (some of mine have a tendency to do that a lot as well) and thought some layered compression and careful automation of the fader level on that track could hide some of those movements.
And that's the cool thing about all this - we all hear everything in a different context. I only listened once kinda late Monday morning on a pair of headphones (albeit HD-650s) plugged into the laptop's headphone output. And that particular audition was shaped by my own tastes and expectations for the material... yours would naturally be different.

So I am still kinda curious how you might further describe this elusive 'sheen' you're looking to capture (or add). I don't much believe in magic pill solutions, though I can say that for my concept of sheen, I reach for the Focusrite MixMaster on the 2-bus (a surprisingly inexpensive Platinum-range product that works is really great for a finishing touch). But when I think 'thicker' or 'fuller' I reach for the Avalon vt-747 on the 2-bus. And then sometimes the mix is just better off going straight out the digital output to the CDR. Even so, that's still just my version of 'sheen'.


-Jeremy

[phalex]

How did you get this tone?

If you're looking to get this kind of jazz tone, I can help. How are you recording your jazz now?

http://www.tedm.com/mp3s/jazz1009.mp3

.

I can't figure out what is missing in the recording chain or what needs to be added to make a World Class sound happen.

It stared out a little brittle so we mixed it to a 2 track to warm it up then recorded back to digital-DAD.

Now its warm but just doesn't have that sheen like I hear on todays recordings.

What is the secret?!?!

Sonny Who
http://bonxo.com/detail.php?id=VNE388


.

[ampguy]

les paul to modded phase 90 to tweed deluxe to inductive load (weber mass - custom) to cab sim to board.

How did you get this tone?

If you're looking to get this kind of jazz tone, I can help. How are you recording your jazz now?

http://www.tedm.com/mp3s/jazz1009.mp3

.

I can't figure out what is missing in the recording chain or what needs to be added to make a World Class sound happen.

It stared out a little brittle so we mixed it to a 2 track to warm it up then recorded back to digital-DAD.

Now its warm but just doesn't have that sheen like I hear on todays recordings.

What is the secret?!?!

Sonny Who
http://bonxo.com/detail.php?id=VNE388


.

[Cellotron]

.
What is the secret?!?!
.

To me a huge factor is the sound of the ROOM. You don't mention the space you're recording in - but all of my favorite sounding jazz records were indeed recorded in rooms that work to flatter the sound of a live ensemble playing together.

Best regards,
Steve Berson

[2db]

..... I thought it sounded somewhat scooped in the low mids and felt I was getting some lows (though not as much as I'd have going) and lots of attack, at least much more than I usually care to have. Also I didn't find the recording to sound over compressed either. I heard the possibility for reworking the compression, but overall the tracks seemed kind of overly mellow, and I thought a bit of light 2-bus compression & EQ could have brought things together nicely. I definitely heard a few spots where the sax player wandered a bit away from the microphone (some of mine have a tendency to do that a lot as well) and thought some layered compression and careful automation of the fader level on that track could hide some of those movements.
And that's the cool thing about all this - we all hear everything in a different context.
So I am still kinda curious how you might further describe this elusive 'sheen' you're looking to capture (or add). I don't much believe in magic pill solutions, though I can say that for my concept of sheen, I reach for the Focusrite MixMaster on the 2-bus (a surprisingly inexpensive Platinum-range product that works is really great for a finishing touch). But when I think 'thicker' or 'fuller' I reach for the Avalon vt-747 on the 2-bus. And then sometimes the mix is just better off going straight out the digital output to the CDR. Even so, that's still just my version of 'sheen'.


-Jeremy

Well you are right on many accounts.
sax player moving in front of mic
little to no compression, no funds spent on mastering, a TC electronics 96k finalizer and a M3000 reverb are used on 'mastering' in home.

'Sheen' like on the Yellowjackets CD or Spyro Gyro recordings of the last year or so. Chick Corea or Vital Information Band.

You have peaked my interest on the Focusrite MixMaster and the 747.
Do you have an Mp3 sample for a listen.

Jim

[Professor]

Try this.
They even cover some Yellowjackets.

If you click the "Play All Songs" tab you'll get the first 2-minutes of all 9 songs.

I tracked, mixed and mastered those tracks over quite a period of time but they were finished last May or June, I think. All tracked to PT-HD, maybe through an outboard preamp but otherwise unprocessed on the way in. They were mixed on the DM-2000 consoles with ProTools plugs in places, some DM-2k EQ & comps, and then reverb, etc. from the TC System 6000. I can't recall if I ran all nine through the MixMaster or if I might have pulled a couple through the Avalon - I'd have to check my notes on that, but I'd imagine more went through the MixMaster than the 747. Then onto a Masterlink for final ordering, fades, & limiting, and off to the presses. Lots of "cold, harsh digital death" for ya'.
I'm not sure if there's enough time on the tracks with saxophone, but you may notice that I had a wandering sax as well. He wandered a bit when singing too, but was pretty good on the flute tracks.

If you want to know more about specific stuff on specific tracks let me know and I'll check out the notes on file.

-Jeremy

[2db]

Try this.
They even cover some Yellowjackets.

If you click the "Play All Songs" tab you'll get the first 2-minutes of all 9 songs.

I tracked, mixed and mastered those tracks over quite a period of time but they were finished last May or June, I think. All tracked to PT-HD, maybe through an outboard preamp but otherwise unprocessed on the way in. They were mixed on the DM-2000 consoles with ProTools plugs in places, some DM-2k EQ & comps, and then reverb, etc. from the TC System 6000. I can't recall if I ran all nine through the MixMaster or if I might have pulled a couple through the Avalon - I'd have to check my notes on that, but I'd imagine more went through the MixMaster than the 747. Then onto a Masterlink for final ordering, fades, & limiting, and off to the presses. Lots of "cold, harsh digital death" for ya'.
I'm not sure if there's enough time on the tracks with saxophone, but you may notice that I had a wandering sax as well. He wandered a bit when singing too, but was pretty good on the flute tracks.
If you want to know more about specific stuff on specific tracks let me know and I'll check out the notes on file.

-Jeremy

Jeremy, this is WONDERFUL and the 1st tune is exactly what I meant by 'sheen' clean full warm in my face but with nice dynamics that draw you into listen.

I love what you have done to these recordings. Is this your band, as well?
I did a Christmas CD hear is a link. Would you please listen to Hark! and see if this any closer then Sonny Who.

http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fu ... D=66344136

Man I am digging the tunes as I type-'cooking band' Green Dolphin Street etc-!!

jim