why don't my mixes sound... BIG?

[weatherbox]

I don't think my stuff sounds bad, and people have always been pretty happy with what we do in ye olde living room, but I'm wondering what I can do to help my mixes get that extra sense of space, fullness, impact... I'm sure good mastering would help, but I know I can be doing better on my own. My room is... not great. Lows, low mids build up. I've treated it as best I can without modifications, which I can't make as it's not my place to alter. I don't have good AD/DA conversion, and mix out of the box (ProTools LE - old Soundcraft 200b.) Other than that, gearwise I'm in fairly good shape. So what's the trick? I put tracks from a couple recent sessions up at:

http://homepage.mac.com/weatherbox/FileSharing34.html
("out of tune" is not yet finished)

Any advice massively appreciated. I've doubled tracks and delayed one a few samples to create width, at expense of mono compatibility, and not a trick that works for many styles. Is getting a bigger, but tighter low end going to really be a matter of controlling the room acoustics?

[MASSIVE Mastering]

A few things that make a *huge* difference - Assuming that the core sounds are great - If that's not there, nothing will help.

1) As mentioned, BASS TRAPPING. You don't have to install it - You can stack GIK or RealTraps in a corner. The difference from 4 or 6 units can be quite dramatic.

2) Recording too hot - I see this all the time lately and I have no idea where it comes from. Getting signals "hot but not clipping" is running the front end around 20dB hotter than it was designed to run. This is digital from chrissakes. "Recording as hot as you can" is as smart as "driving as fast as you can." Back in the day when we were hitting tape hard, you were running the preamps 4, maybe 6dB over nominal. To hit around -0dBFS, you're running 18, 20 - maybe 22dB over nominal. That's not how the gear is designed to run. And it's one of the best ways to make otherwise good sounding recordings sound "small" and "lifeless" with less space, fullness, impact, focus, etc.

3) SPACE - The best way to create a sense of "space" is to use space. Microphones don't have to be 6" away from the source - Of course, without (1) and (2) already addressed, (3) isn't going to amount to a hill of beans.

Sure, a better set of converters, maybe a decent mastering session - Those are things that will certainly help. But if those other things are in order in the first place, the number of "excuses" drops dramatically.

[chris harris]

2) Recording too hot - I see this all the time lately and I have no idea where it comes from. Getting signals "hot but not clipping" is running the front end around 20dB hotter than it was designed to run. This is digital from chrissakes. "Recording as hot as you can" is as smart as "driving as fast as you can." Back in the day when we were hitting tape hard, you were running the preamps 4, maybe 6dB over nominal. To hit around -0dBFS, you're running 18, 20 - maybe 22dB over nominal. That's not how the gear is designed to run. And it's one of the best ways to make otherwise good sounding recordings sound "small" and "lifeless" with less space, fullness, impact, focus, etc.

I've heard more amature recordings ruined by this than by digital reverb. people are so hung up on "using all the bits" that they don't even notice that a fingerpicked acoustic guitar sounds like crap with peaks anywhere near -0dBFS.

even crappy converters these days are quiet enough that you can just worry about getting a good sound and then turn it up in the software.

[weatherbox]

thanks. I don't track too hot, particularly as I don't like to compress much on the way in... leave plenty of headroom! I haven't been able to do much with bass trapping as I record in someone else's living room - but I think it's pretty clearly going to be first order of business once I get my own space settled. The amount of 140-200hz that builds up on the drum room mics gets insane. I've worked in other rooms and felt like the method was the same... but the results a lot cleaner. It's not seeming possible to me that the bass trapping can make *that* much of a difference, but I'd love to think it can.

[kayagum]

For cheap, temporary bass trapping, you can just pile a bunch of still-in-shrinkwrap fiberglass rolls (Ethan Winer recommendation: http://ethanwiner.com/acoustics.html )

Or a couple of rolled up futons. Or an extra couch or two. I use my Versapanels rolled up in the corners when I'm not using them as gobos.

Bass trapping does not necessarily mean permanent installations. Use what you have.

PS The RealTraps can be mounted on stands.

[LeedyGuy]

Okay...guilty. I record too hot digitally. i dont know why. im like...brainwashed! I'm going to get over it though...i SWEAR...today.

my question is this:

what bass traps do i need specifically? what can i buy? i have a pretty small room that actually sounds mostly okay most of the time, but I think it can sound better. i need something that is spatially economic though too, because the room is small, so no couches or anything of that nature. Any ideas?

[RoyMatthews]

Well, I listened to 2 of the tracks (Molly Maroon and Blow My Mind) and I think they sound pretty cool. My nitpicking complaints on "Molly" would be that it's a bit harsh in the low highs (bout 8k) and I'd like to hear more kick. Oh and more definition on the instruments.

I don't know if the low end is really your problem. The bass on both the songs feels well placed. On 'Blow' the kick feels big. I don't know if you had to fight your room to get these sounds though. Treatment will help but like you said there's only so much you can do. Maybe there's a bookcase that can be moved strategically to help kill some of the mid energy.

I think the songs would feel bigger if some sounds were spread out more. Give it more width. I've never been a fan of electronically doubling tracks. It never sounded good to me. If you can have the band play the part again to double the tracks. Or pan complimentary tracks opposite each other like a guitar and piano.

I dunno. I ramble. I wrote this before running to work so it might not make sense. If I think of more i'll let you know.

[will.record.for.food]

Im listening to Molly Maroon. It sounds really good. Im not getting a sense of non-bigness, but I'll have to check it out at home on my monitors...Im listening on eMac speakers right now...

[weatherbox]

"Molly" is actually a mastered track - by some "mastering in one hour!" budget local dude, from what I understand. The pitfalls of budget record-making, I guess. I thought he jacked the highs up a bit too much myself. In truth my mix did need a little EQing, but I thought it was overdone.

thanks for the comments. Roy, I agree - a lot of it is about finding width in the mix, and I too prefer to avoid synthetic doubling except as a special effect. I feel like a band that thinks about it's arrangements and sounds is doing most of the work for me, but it can be hard when a group hasn't put in that prep time. I think that establishing space and finding a way to get big, tight low end in there is where I'm struggling now.

[MASSIVE Mastering]

I have 21 bass traps in this room. I think it's enough.

But seriously - *Small* and *Drum Room* in the same paragraph means that you should have probably a third of the wall area (including all the corners) treated with broadband and low end absorption.

The difference isn't subtle...

[riantide]

Turn your monitors down. A friend just gave me this advice and it's really sound. I'm mixing in a pretty abysmal room as well. It's practically a perfect cube. Anyway, I was talking to this friend of mine who is an absolutely stellar engineer and he said that if you're in a bad room and you want to check your low end, turn your monitors down. Take the reflections out of the picture and you won't be hearing anything funky that the room is doing.

Also find a pair of headphones you can really trust, that helps.

I think your mixes sound pretty awesome, personally, and it doesn't seem like bottom end is too much of a problem for you. As for wideness and depth, that's a problem I struggle with as well, so I'll keep checking this thread to see what all the people smarter than me say about that!

Very cool mixes, best of luck.