Bad mastering ruining albums...

[DGoody]

For the records I've been doing this with, I've had the artist print the following on either liner notes or back cover:

"This compact disc was mastered at a lower volume in order to retain the natural dynamic range of the final mixes, unlike the majority of commercial recordings."

Some have taken offense to the "unlike most commercial recordings" bit, but fuck em. It's true!!

Most times, I admit, the label says NO to this....... but I've been fortunate enough to have it done on several records thus far, mostly being released in 2007......

Ultimately, people probably don't read it anyway, but it's there..... I can't think of anything else but to convince the artist that they are BREAKING GROUND. For those who want that, it's great. Some however, want to "compete"......

I'm getting to the point where I'm sick of fucking talking about it ad nauseum. I'm starting to not to give a shit, and just let it happen, and that frustrates me.

[emotionaljoystick]

"I'm getting to the point where I'm sick of fucking talking about it ad nauseum. I'm starting to not to give a shit, and just let it happen, and that frustrates me."

No! Don't stop talking about it. Again, I JUST recently got frustrated with it, as I recently started listening to rock music again, after a long time of listening to nothing but out/experimental music (even though it's slowly encrouching on these idioms of music as well).

And I know everyone is saying that "it's been happening for a very long time", but it really did start showing up in indy music relativly recently, and really does keep getting worse.

And as far as people actually discussing this problem in a public forum, keep in mind, while you and your friends (and me and my friends) may be discussing it, when i did a google search, I came up with a very scant set of links, and that wikipedia article.

"Some however, want to "compete""

I think that is the exact root of the problem. You nailed it. "little guys" wanting to compete with the "big guys", because really the whole distribution system is drastically changing, so that is theoretically possible. But people need to understand this is not the way to do it.

"The guitar albums seem to be mastered really slammed, but really their just catching up to what people in the electronic scene have been doing for a few years now. "

A couple of notes on this; In the Indy world it's the electronic DANCE albums, not all "electronic" albums that have been doing this, and it makes sense why. You don't listen to dance albums on your home stereo, for the most part, you either are DJing them in a club, or trying ot dance to them in said club. Either way, a uniform volume is benificial. Also, in electronic dance music, you generally have "simpler" sounds than say, a full strummed guitar. Squashing an 808 kick and some pads doesn't have the same effect as squashing an 8 piece band, with additional production.

"What if someone put together a website that explains the problems with the loudness war, and it had a 'letter of intent' that artists could sign to combat the problem? The site would then list the artists and it would give people a reference point for buying music in the future. The terms wouldn't be so tight that it would seriously tie the hands of engineers and musicians, but literally, I can't find any music to buy that doesn't sound like total shit. The site could also have a 'shitlist' of albums and dvds to avoid. I'd don't know jack about coding a website, but I'd love to see this made. "

This is a seriously great idea, and exactly what I was looking for. Some sort of group action / participation thing.

I know there is a war going on right now, and there may be more pressing matters, but this does still matter to me. I would like to actually be able to buy a new CD that I can actually listen to multiple times.

Anyway, I DO know a bit about making websites, and the easiest thing to do would be to set something up with Wordpress. I just may do this.

Would anyone care?

--Tom---

[Wilkesin]

Just in regards to that Battles album...

I dont think it is out yet, so i am guessing you are listening on mp3s, and from what little testing i have done, it seems (and Im guessing here) that many of the mp3 codecs dont really know how to handle peaks that run up within a half db fullscale or zero fullscale (as I've seen many recording hit) and I think they just turn it into clipping.

If this is the case, yes the album is probably ridiculously hot, but some of the distortion is probably made worse by the mp3 encoding (which so many consumers hear music on these days ).

[Xavier]

"What if someone put together a website that explains the problems with the loudness war, and it had a 'letter of intent' that artists could sign to combat the problem? The site would then list the artists and it would give people a reference point for buying music in the future. The terms wouldn't be so tight that it would seriously tie the hands of engineers and musicians, but literally, I can't find any music to buy that doesn't sound like total shit. The site could also have a 'shitlist' of albums and dvds to avoid. I'd don't know jack about coding a website, but I'd love to see this made. "

This is a seriously great idea, and exactly what I was looking for. Some sort of group action / participation thing.

I know there is a war going on right now, and there may be more pressing matters, but this does still matter to me. I would like to actually be able to buy a new CD that I can actually listen to multiple times.

Anyway, I DO know a bit about making websites, and the easiest thing to do would be to set something up with Wordpress. I just may do this.

Would anyone care?

I think people (the general public) would care if they HEAR what is going on. That is, if they are music lovers in at least the smallest amount. But, those non-mixers need to understand with more than words since they don't have our critical listening experience.

For example: let people hear a sanely compressed mix and then a hyper-compressed mix of the SAME song. Lower the volume of the hyper-compressed version so they are both at the same percieved volume. Afterwards, ask them if they can feel the fatigue in their ears. Ask them questions to lead them down the path to realize on their own that while the hyper-compressed version was more impressive for the first 30 seconds, it loses all it's draw and just sounds much less interesting after a while. After mutiple listens to each version (assuming they like the song) the whole picture would become much more apparent.


However, without some type of "loudness level" claimers on CD's, I don't think this beast can be tamed.

However, what might be helpful is to start compiling a public list of all albums and their loudness levels. Plus, that might preempt loudness level claimers on CDs....


<X>

[emotionaljoystick]

Thanks for the input. I am def. going to do some sort of compilation of these thoughts into a user forum. The wikipedia article was a good first step, but this needs to go further. I think just a view of the waveform for vinyl masters vs. the CD masters is enough to tell people there is something wrong...

Oh, and not to be nitpicky:

"If this is the case, yes the album is probably ridiculously hot, but some of the distortion is probably made worse by the mp3 encoding (which so many consumers hear music on these days Crying or Very sad )."

Yes, I agree 100%. Distorted clipping is made even worse by MP3 encoding. However, I do have an advance copy of the album.

---Tom---

[Wilkesin]

Yes, I agree 100%. Distorted clipping is made even worse by MP3 encoding. However, I do have an advance copy of the album.

Cool. On the opposite end of the spectrum, Im listening to the new Feist record and i keep finding myself drawn into it, listening more intently as it goes along, reaching over and bumping the volume up just a touch as it goes (making sure not to disturb my lady in the next room) and watching the joyous bouncing of the meters on my board as it plays...

My first record of the year candidate....ahhhhhhhhh!

[centurymantra]

It is true that these conversations go on ad nauseum and some may call them redundant...but we need to keep having 'em!! I also disagree that noone would read those liner notes. True, most will gloss over them without thinking about it, but I think that most folks who have a CD will at some point peruse the pics, lyrics, etc. while listening and if even, say, 4-5% of the people read this, comprehend it, and take this into consideration then it's a worthwhile cause.

The excessive compression has begun to creep into the indie music realm, and this is a bit sad. It's especially distressing to see this happening to acoustic music! The recent record by Espers (great folk/psych band) is a prime example. Watching the meters on the CD player in the rack of my studio, it's pegged (and I do mean pegged) to the wall with many red "overs". I mean, there are ZERO dynamics in what should be highly dynamic music. So sad. That being said, it sure does "sound like a record". It was interesting to throw in a CD from around 1990 or so, Low's first record (...I think it's called 'To Live in Hope' - or something like that). Anyway, the first thing I notice, is that the volume knob is up a few notches. Then I look at the meters and see that it's got a lot of range with many dips into the -10 to -12 region with a few jumps here and there to the -3 or so area. Practically vinyl levels. Granted, Low's recordings have always been and still are sonically excellent (inspiring, even) and they certainly are a band that has maintained distance, even in recent years, to crazy compression. Still, it was refreshing to play a CD like this.

[MoreSpaceEcho]

yeah, you put on an older record and it's the most refreshing thing in the world.

that's cool you guys are putting 'mastering disclaimers' on your records, i was thinking of doing that on my bands last record....but i couldn't think of a suitably pithy way to word it so i scrapped it...

[pwrb]

DGoody, I really like your disclaimer and would like to start using it too. I hope you don't mind... I messed around with the wording a bit, trying to keep it semi-friendly and informative to non-technical music fans:

"In order to retain the natural dynamic range of the final mixes, this compact disc was mastered at a volume lower than that of many contemporary commercial recordings."

Thoughts? Additions? Perhaps Xavier's K-12 info could be incorporated...

-Pete

www.weissy.com
www.verdantstudio.com
www.weisstronauts.com

[MoreSpaceEcho]

i think the K-12 stuff is too nerdy to put on a cd, it means something to those of us MAKING the records, but i imagine it just looking like gobbledygook to non-engineers. which is most everyone. i was thinking something like "this recording has been mastered for maximum dynamic range and transient response. while it may initially seem 'quiet' when compared with other contemporary cds, a healthy turn of your stereo's volume knob in a clockwise manner is all that is necessary for ultimate listening pleasure."

or something. i dunno. i'm a drummer.

[DGoody]

I know..... I won't stop caring, I was just projecting...... I just want it to stop!!!

I don't mind if anyone uses any of my words,....... in fact, I welcome it. The more the merrier.

by the way, if anyone has it, put the newest Killers record in and watch the meters......... not only is it the worst use of 3K I've ever heard, it is so fucking loud, it's beyond ridiculous........ just thought I'd mention it for shits and giggles.....

I think a website is a great idea, and I'm happy to contribute. I think the more artists feel empowered and not hindered by it, the better........ they just need a support system, and I suppose who better to provide the foundation than those of us who get paid to make records, right? I mean, we get paid to do this for a living (or even a hobby-it doesn't matter). We're supposed to be the experts, yet nobody listens!!!

Maybe they will begin..... and I'm happy to help.....

Here's my email address if anyone wants to get me:

djames.goodwin@gmail.com

[Xavier]

i think the K-12 stuff is too nerdy to put on a cd, it means something to those of us MAKING the records, but i imagine it just looking like gobbledygook to non-engineers.

They print "Dolby" standard info on DVDs. They used to print AAD or ADD ect on CD's. Instruments used, studios recorded at. Produced by, tracked by, masterd by. Most regular people think the producer does all that. There's all kinds of geeky information on albums...

i was thinking something like "this recording has been mastered for maximum dynamic range and transient response. while it may initially seem 'quiet' when compared with other contemporary cds, a healthy turn of your stereo's volume knob in a clockwise manner is all that is necessary for ultimate listening pleasure."

That is certainly the point that needs to be made.

The problem is that if some sort of standard isn't followed, and labeled as such, we'll still end up with albums all over the map on volume and dynamics. It might even get as bad as going too far the other way and not using enough bits. OK, unlikely.

Maybe the K-12 claimer should include MoreSpaceEcho's statement and a website address explaining why that statement was made.

[vvv]

I seem to recall maybe Sticky Fingers saying something like, "This record was mixed and mastered loud, turn it up!"

(I am at work; can't check right now.)

[floid]

Ziggy Stardust says something similar, "To Be Played at Maximum Volume," maybe.
the K-12 article makes a hell of a lot of sense to me, but i'm kind of stuck on how to implement this type metering into my rig - the only stereo meters i even use are the ones on my SIB, mainly to avoid digital overs...

[emotionaljoystick]

As far as GOOD mastering in recent years, the 2005 reissue / remaster of all the Comus albums are great. Exactly what "remastering" is supposed to do... restoration / keeping dynamics, compression in the right places...

So yeah, props to whomever did that...


---Tom