superaction80 wrote:i actually like this definition of jass. cats shouldn't be able to poo in the avant garde litter box unless they have a proven grasp of the "canon" or whatever. i mean, ya, new orleans is the birthplace and all, for the most part, but i wouldn't say "early 20th century new orleans" i would just say "have you had your head up bird's butt and can you prove it?" or whatever.Brian Brock wrote: I used to hate Wynton Marsalis. Not his playing, but his ultra-conservative definition of jazz. But the older I get, the more I find I agree with him.
I think it has to do with being exposed to a lot of jam-bands and crappy jazz/hip-hop fusion. Or just fusion.
Really, though, you'll not find two people who agree on a definition. If we use Wynton's (its only Jazz if the player's vocabulary shares in a tradition that can be traced back to early 20th century New Orleans), we have to exclude Ornette Coleman and the late John Contrane era. And Antonio Carlos Jobim. But if we use my old definition (its Jazz if you're making things up), we have to include Phish.
The answer is probably in the middle (hopefully somewhere that excludes String Cheese Incident and Boney James).
i mean clearly i'm not making a total point here... but listen to mmw's first record, notes from the underground... live to DAT... all acoustic... there's definitely some avant gardy "sounds" [or whatever] on there (that would make some oldskool-snob-types pee on their sneaks)... but even with a sound like 'orbits', a progressive tune in its own right, those cats are showing us or telling us that they can swing. and they tip the hat to n'orleans to with 'the saint' i would suppose...
i have no idea what i'm REALLY trying to get across with this post... just that wynton's opinion of what "jass" is is all well n' good, what have you...
i got no problem with old timers who like to swing and would prefer if the guitar did nothing but chunk all night like mr. freddie green... i actually love cats like that. but most of the ones i know are sweet human beings with open hearts and minds.
and PS, i got no problem with sellin out. i say, "go, wynton!" for making a successful career in instrumental music. lookin all fly and whatnot in those stupid movado watch ads, etc. DO IT MANG. it's just... since he is probably THE most 'visible' figure in jazz (hardly the most 'audible'), it suuuuure would be nice if he wasn't such a stuck up chump.
and yeah, he could swing me under the table any day, but i don't consider myself a jasser, or y'know.
i love everything that came out of the book of bird [or armstrong, or the plantation] just as much as i love everything that came out of the book of dylan [or guthrie, or the plantation] and hendrix would float anytime someone mentioned dylan. and miles stepped on stern's orange boss boxxx in '86 and said "play some hendrix shit"
y'all heard me?
5 Albums That Changed Your Life
Moderator: cgarges
branford rules!!!cgarges wrote:It should also be noted that knowing people who know Wynton myself and having met Branford, I can say that Branford is a super-nice, extremely well-spoken, open-minded individual.
Chris Garges
Charlotte, NC
it's too bad he didn't bust [mangle] his bro's lip at some point growing up...
oh yeah i forgot to say to the dude i quoted...
why exclude late era trane because of wynton's definition?
that's why the early trane chapters is been written... to Qualify the late tra'in' chapters, right?!?!?
if he had never mastered the living hecksoul out of the music as it existed and had existed while he was coming up and prior, how could he have ever possibly progressed to his later idea[l]s?
i say all of tranes book goes under wynton's definition, cuz the cat done proved he figured it out, for the oldtimers, and for himself.
he wasn't "jamming" for the sake of some weirdos in a parking lot at some show.
he was backstage practicing his ass off because it made him believe in something of considerable truth. that cat could poo on the floor as far as i'm concerned...
_______________
also,
it's kinda sad what happened to the jazz "industry" around the time columbia (i think it was columbia) made wynton their central focus in the late 70's......
it smells that pop music can't really be removed from its glossy outer sheen, or candy coating, or what it is, in an "industry" sense. most folks who is gonna break into sellin mad records in the vocal world gotta have some look to them to make the boys and girls want... this i can almost stomach...
but it seems to me that a lot of cats who were (in my opinion) much better players, people (hahaha, "better people"), than wynton, who would have led much more interesting and invigorating careers had they had the support of a record label to blossom, never even got the chance because that glossy-sheen-necessity (for industry's sake) became essential in jazz music as well... that's real hard to stomach. and maybe i'm placing some blame on wynton for something that he didn't intentionally do, something that was some bizarre social-economic-unavoidable-hellhole-at-one-point-in-time-a-speck-on-the-horizon, but i think wynton is a tool AND he's an arrogant chump too who sounds like used qtips in the small white plastic bin in my WC, so I feel aight placin this blame on his pompous n' broad shoulders!
branford for president!!! WYNTON BE MORE LIKE YOUR BRO, DAWG!
why exclude late era trane because of wynton's definition?
that's why the early trane chapters is been written... to Qualify the late tra'in' chapters, right?!?!?
if he had never mastered the living hecksoul out of the music as it existed and had existed while he was coming up and prior, how could he have ever possibly progressed to his later idea[l]s?
i say all of tranes book goes under wynton's definition, cuz the cat done proved he figured it out, for the oldtimers, and for himself.
he wasn't "jamming" for the sake of some weirdos in a parking lot at some show.
he was backstage practicing his ass off because it made him believe in something of considerable truth. that cat could poo on the floor as far as i'm concerned...
_______________
also,
it's kinda sad what happened to the jazz "industry" around the time columbia (i think it was columbia) made wynton their central focus in the late 70's......
it smells that pop music can't really be removed from its glossy outer sheen, or candy coating, or what it is, in an "industry" sense. most folks who is gonna break into sellin mad records in the vocal world gotta have some look to them to make the boys and girls want... this i can almost stomach...
but it seems to me that a lot of cats who were (in my opinion) much better players, people (hahaha, "better people"), than wynton, who would have led much more interesting and invigorating careers had they had the support of a record label to blossom, never even got the chance because that glossy-sheen-necessity (for industry's sake) became essential in jazz music as well... that's real hard to stomach. and maybe i'm placing some blame on wynton for something that he didn't intentionally do, something that was some bizarre social-economic-unavoidable-hellhole-at-one-point-in-time-a-speck-on-the-horizon, but i think wynton is a tool AND he's an arrogant chump too who sounds like used qtips in the small white plastic bin in my WC, so I feel aight placin this blame on his pompous n' broad shoulders!
branford for president!!! WYNTON BE MORE LIKE YOUR BRO, DAWG!
EXACTLY. which is just unbelievable to me. granted, jarrett can be a prick sometimes. but IT'S SO ENDEARING!!!!!cgarges wrote:I think he has bigger issues with Keith Jarrett. But yeah, the two of them don't ever discuss music. Like, EVER. I've heard that from both of them.
Chris Garges
Charlotte, NC
HE IS KEITH JARRETT, AFTER ALL.
HOLY SMOKES.
If anyone ever deserved to curse at an audience for using flash photo gear at a show, it's K.J.
not even considering the chronic stress syndrome which afflicts him!!!!
I would follow keith to the edge of the world and i would not even CONSIDER getting out of my chair for wynton. when i saw the keith, gary, and jack at carnegie hall summer '07 i was uncontrollably weeping the whole time.
only other thing that's ever made that happen to me is frisell with greg leisz. like, totally uncontrollable tears of joy...
i wish there was a tuba in the lincoln center jazz orchestra which CONSTANTLY plays the brown note so wynton is just on and off the shittah!
did keith really talk smack about branford?! i thought the only beef was tween keith and wynton... damn i'm gonna have to dismantle my keith shrine if that's the case....cgarges wrote:Which is why Keith is such and asshole.
Branford has had nothing but respect for keith growing up. For Keith to outright talk smack about Branford, whom he had never met, in Downbeat in the mid 90s, really pissed Branford off. I'd be pissed-off, too.
Chris Garges
Charlotte, NC
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This is really hard since I have many, many favorite records that I went "Wow" when I first heard them, but here I 'll try. Mine are kinda run of the mill and I was a young adult in the 90s so...
(no particular order)
Smashing Pumpkins - Gish
Smashing Pumpkins - Siamese Dream
Pink Floyd - Meddle and DSOTM(I cheated there a little and put two down in 1 spot)
Radiohead - OK Computer and The Bends(I did it again, damn!)
Led Zeppelin - IV or Presence
Can't believe that's already 5. There are so many albums that changed my life I guess!
(no particular order)
Smashing Pumpkins - Gish
Smashing Pumpkins - Siamese Dream
Pink Floyd - Meddle and DSOTM(I cheated there a little and put two down in 1 spot)
Radiohead - OK Computer and The Bends(I did it again, damn!)
Led Zeppelin - IV or Presence
Can't believe that's already 5. There are so many albums that changed my life I guess!
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