R&B and "R&B"
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R&B and "R&B"
Not sure if this forum is where I could post a topic like this, but I'm trying to write a paper on what I believe to be the downfall of R&B since the 1980s. I'm going to focus on the apparent hip-hop influence on contemporary R&B, but also the post-disco/smooth jazz tinge. The problem is I'm having a hard time locating some worthwhile sources.
I'd appreciate any help I could get, if someone's done some research on the matter or are just well-versed in all things R&B. I'm really just trying to find that transition point, when that Aretha and Al Green type of R&B transformed into the R. Kelly, Boyz II Men, Chris Brown kind.
And for the record, I do enjoy some of that really smooth music.
I'd appreciate any help I could get, if someone's done some research on the matter or are just well-versed in all things R&B. I'm really just trying to find that transition point, when that Aretha and Al Green type of R&B transformed into the R. Kelly, Boyz II Men, Chris Brown kind.
And for the record, I do enjoy some of that really smooth music.
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Not sure I agree with your premise; nothing really fell down, it just went somewhere else as the culture changed. The preteen girls in my last kids' group at work think r&b (and rap) are doing just fine. I don't like what they like, but that's 'cause I'm over 35.
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Rough answer, though:
- '60s Soul, like Aretha, Al Green, earlier Motown = church-based virtuoso singing + virtuoso studio musician band + tape and tube/ribbon equipment; (and a smattering of other influences, e.g., some jazz chords, some Afro Caribbean rhythmic influence, etc.).
- This morphed in the '70s into funk. Sly Stone was a transitional figure into this style. The vocal performance became slightly less important as the arrangements got more harmonically and rhythmically sophisticated (more jazz and Latin influence, new instruments and effects, more complex chord progressions and horn charts). The recorded sound got cleaner and maybe thinner, as overdubbing increased and solid state recorders and consoles came in. Examples: Curtis Mayfield, Parliament, Earth Wind & Fire, Isley Brothers, and so on. Also note the huge influence of James Brown's rhythm sections in making grooves more sophisticated.
- By the mid '80s, it was starting to be possible to replace live backing bands with sequenced synthesizer, sampler, and drum machine parts, still recorded to tape. The turning point I remember is Janet Jackson's hits, like "Nasty" and "Let's Wait a While," which Jam and Lewis produced with the Ensonic Mirage sampler and some other stuff. The glossy DX7 sound got big too, because it was the first decent polyphonic synthesizer that was affordable. (Rap was coming in, but the early stuff, e.g. Sugar Hill, was cut just like a soul or funk record -- rapper plus great band, to tape). Early sequencers had a low resolution, so the music felt a little stiffer sometimes, compared to the soul and funk stuff before. This stuff I just mentioned might be the beginning of the aesthetic shift you asked about.
- Eventually, computer recording and better samplers (MPC, etc.) became common. Certain arranging tricks, like stacking up enormous numbers of background vocals, grew out of the move from tape to computer and the greater number of tracks available. The elimination of live rhythm sections was complete, and that changed the feel somewhat. The church-based acrobatics in the vocals became more pronounced, especially for female singers, since the backing tracks sometimes were relatively simple (similar to soul).
Also, by now the jazz generation of musicians had passed on, so a certain amount of harmonic sophistication started to disappear by the '90s; there were still great producers, but some of them weren't as well-schooled as, say, Johnny Pate (who produced Curtis Mayfield) or Bernie Worrell (who did a lot of composing for Parliament), people who really knew chords and orchestration.
This is where I got off the R&B bus, so I don't have specifics for you re artists, etc..
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Have you read Nelson George's book?
Not that I have, but it seems relevant.
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Hope this helps . . .
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Rough answer, though:
- '60s Soul, like Aretha, Al Green, earlier Motown = church-based virtuoso singing + virtuoso studio musician band + tape and tube/ribbon equipment; (and a smattering of other influences, e.g., some jazz chords, some Afro Caribbean rhythmic influence, etc.).
- This morphed in the '70s into funk. Sly Stone was a transitional figure into this style. The vocal performance became slightly less important as the arrangements got more harmonically and rhythmically sophisticated (more jazz and Latin influence, new instruments and effects, more complex chord progressions and horn charts). The recorded sound got cleaner and maybe thinner, as overdubbing increased and solid state recorders and consoles came in. Examples: Curtis Mayfield, Parliament, Earth Wind & Fire, Isley Brothers, and so on. Also note the huge influence of James Brown's rhythm sections in making grooves more sophisticated.
- By the mid '80s, it was starting to be possible to replace live backing bands with sequenced synthesizer, sampler, and drum machine parts, still recorded to tape. The turning point I remember is Janet Jackson's hits, like "Nasty" and "Let's Wait a While," which Jam and Lewis produced with the Ensonic Mirage sampler and some other stuff. The glossy DX7 sound got big too, because it was the first decent polyphonic synthesizer that was affordable. (Rap was coming in, but the early stuff, e.g. Sugar Hill, was cut just like a soul or funk record -- rapper plus great band, to tape). Early sequencers had a low resolution, so the music felt a little stiffer sometimes, compared to the soul and funk stuff before. This stuff I just mentioned might be the beginning of the aesthetic shift you asked about.
- Eventually, computer recording and better samplers (MPC, etc.) became common. Certain arranging tricks, like stacking up enormous numbers of background vocals, grew out of the move from tape to computer and the greater number of tracks available. The elimination of live rhythm sections was complete, and that changed the feel somewhat. The church-based acrobatics in the vocals became more pronounced, especially for female singers, since the backing tracks sometimes were relatively simple (similar to soul).
Also, by now the jazz generation of musicians had passed on, so a certain amount of harmonic sophistication started to disappear by the '90s; there were still great producers, but some of them weren't as well-schooled as, say, Johnny Pate (who produced Curtis Mayfield) or Bernie Worrell (who did a lot of composing for Parliament), people who really knew chords and orchestration.
This is where I got off the R&B bus, so I don't have specifics for you re artists, etc..
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Have you read Nelson George's book?
Not that I have, but it seems relevant.
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Hope this helps . . .
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I don't really agree with your premise either, but I think you can point to this album as the point where R&B jumped the shark:
Saying that "Hip-hop ruined R&B" is like saying "Prince Paul and Madlib are the reason urban music is so boring". I wish! And I don't see MIDI Mafia or Scott Storch selling beats to Atmosphere or MF Doom.
I think the R&B that has been influenced by Hip-hop is some of the best stuff out there. Erykah Badu, D'Angelo, Jill Scott, Cee Lo Green, Cody ChesnuTT and Andre 3000 all come to mind.
Saying that "Hip-hop ruined R&B" is like saying "Prince Paul and Madlib are the reason urban music is so boring". I wish! And I don't see MIDI Mafia or Scott Storch selling beats to Atmosphere or MF Doom.
I think the R&B that has been influenced by Hip-hop is some of the best stuff out there. Erykah Badu, D'Angelo, Jill Scott, Cee Lo Green, Cody ChesnuTT and Andre 3000 all come to mind.
Prog out with your cog out.
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Thanks for all the responses.
Yeah, I think it may be a bit much to say that R&B is dead or that Hip-Hop tainted it completely. I mean every other genre in popular music has changed over the decades and modern pop music has certainly played off all of these genres. It makes sense where R&B went.
I may switch over to something along the lines of the steady decline of the album as an art form in pop music, and how the single is the preferred format because of consumer trends, new technology, and some sort of snide comment about record label exploitation
Oh, procrastination.
Yeah, I think it may be a bit much to say that R&B is dead or that Hip-Hop tainted it completely. I mean every other genre in popular music has changed over the decades and modern pop music has certainly played off all of these genres. It makes sense where R&B went.
I may switch over to something along the lines of the steady decline of the album as an art form in pop music, and how the single is the preferred format because of consumer trends, new technology, and some sort of snide comment about record label exploitation
Oh, procrastination.
- Jay Reynolds
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Here's one I've thought about lately:
For nearly a century, you can often see African American music as the root of pop/rock. This trend seems broken with Rap/Hip-hop in that some of the production/"instrumental" elements have crossed over. But the vocal genre of "emceeing" has not. You can hear Chuck Berry's influence (albeit in a very round-about fashion) in the Beatle's vocals. I don't hear Run DMC's style in anything except for Hip-hop. It looked like we were headed there with Limp Bizcit and co, but the Rap-Metal thing didn't seem to have a lot of longevity. And there hasn't been a big market for white MCs (except for a couple notable exceptions). There is something different about Hip-hop compared to the blues, jazz, R&B, funk, etc.
For nearly a century, you can often see African American music as the root of pop/rock. This trend seems broken with Rap/Hip-hop in that some of the production/"instrumental" elements have crossed over. But the vocal genre of "emceeing" has not. You can hear Chuck Berry's influence (albeit in a very round-about fashion) in the Beatle's vocals. I don't hear Run DMC's style in anything except for Hip-hop. It looked like we were headed there with Limp Bizcit and co, but the Rap-Metal thing didn't seem to have a lot of longevity. And there hasn't been a big market for white MCs (except for a couple notable exceptions). There is something different about Hip-hop compared to the blues, jazz, R&B, funk, etc.
Prog out with your cog out.
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Re: R&B and "R&B"
Int'l Feel wrote:Not sure if this forum is where I could post a topic like this, but I'm trying to write a paper on what I believe to be the downfall of R&B since the 1980s. I'm going to focus on the apparent hip-hop influence on contemporary R&B, but also the post-disco/smooth jazz tinge. The problem is I'm having a hard time locating some worthwhile sources.
I'd appreciate any help I could get, if someone's done some research on the matter or are just well-versed in all things R&B. I'm really just trying to find that transition point, when that Aretha and Al Green type of R&B transformed into the R. Kelly, Boyz II Men, Chris Brown kind.
I think that unless it's specifically an opinion paper, you stand a better chance of tracking stylistic shifts than qualitative decline--since "quality" in this case is purely subjective.
"Jeweller, you've failed. Jeweller."
"Lots of people are nostalgic for analog. I suspect they're people who never had to work with it." ? Brian Eno
All the DWLB music is at http://dwlb.bandcamp.com/
"Lots of people are nostalgic for analog. I suspect they're people who never had to work with it." ? Brian Eno
All the DWLB music is at http://dwlb.bandcamp.com/
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I always thought R&B was what Bo Diddley did, the progenitor of rock & roll and soul.
Was soul music always known as R&B?
I remember feeling perplexed when someone referred to Whitney Huston as R&B, I thought you couldn't get further away from Ernie K Doe if you tried.
Was soul music always known as R&B?
I remember feeling perplexed when someone referred to Whitney Huston as R&B, I thought you couldn't get further away from Ernie K Doe if you tried.
"I told people I was a drummer before I even had a set, I was a mental drummer. " - Keith Moon
Yeah, I think you just need to use less weighted terminology than "downfall," unless you're implying that the downfall is some sort of financial crisis concerning the music business that relates to people not wanting to respond with cash to emotionless music anymore, which might be true, but it's a hard thing to write about if you want to use scholarly sources.
Maybe try to think of some less emotional terminology to draw attention to what you feel is an important change.
Regardless, I do believe R&B bears much less resemblance to the R&B of the 50's and 60's than Rock does to Rock and Roll of the same era or Country to Country and Western.
Maybe try to think of some less emotional terminology to draw attention to what you feel is an important change.
Regardless, I do believe R&B bears much less resemblance to the R&B of the 50's and 60's than Rock does to Rock and Roll of the same era or Country to Country and Western.
Stilgar, we've got wormsign the likes of which God has never seen!
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Speaking of stupid stuff people did in high school, I had a friend in tenth grade who wrote a long term paper about, basically, "Eric Clapton, Jeff Beck, and Jimmy Page are the three best British blues guitarists". He got a big fat C, or maybe even a D, and got all depressed afterwards, but of course he deserved the shitty grade because his point was totally subjective and not provable.
Here was his mistake: Unless you have been specifically assigned to write a persuasive paper containing unsubstantiated/unprovable opinions, DON'T DO IT! Write something that you can back up with citations! (I don't see how you can write a good paper using citations about 'r and b ain't what it used ta be') I do like your idea to write something about the decline of the album. You'll be able to scrounge up some numbers/stats somewhere to objectively support your thesis.
Just trying to help.
Here was his mistake: Unless you have been specifically assigned to write a persuasive paper containing unsubstantiated/unprovable opinions, DON'T DO IT! Write something that you can back up with citations! (I don't see how you can write a good paper using citations about 'r and b ain't what it used ta be') I do like your idea to write something about the decline of the album. You'll be able to scrounge up some numbers/stats somewhere to objectively support your thesis.
Just trying to help.
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I think my original idea was to talk about how different the R&B of the 50s and 60s is from the R&B of now and I certainly made the mistake of attaching some personal feelings to the thesis. There's little to none information about the "downfall" (though there was an interesting article about how R. Kelly helped 'ruin' the genre) as there really isn't one. R&B is just a different animal.
This paper is for a college music criticism class, but it's funny that you mention that bit about Clapton, Beck, and Page ysyrtypy, because I did a speech in high school about the Yardbirds. Ground-breaking shit, believe me.
As for a potential paper on the transformation of R&B, I think I'd have to spend a ridiculous amount of time doing research, finding all the proponents that helped the transition into contemporary R&B. I've only got maybe a week and a half to write this paper, so I think I'll just play it safe.
Thanks for all the feedback though. I'd be interested in hearing more of your opinions on the matter.
This paper is for a college music criticism class, but it's funny that you mention that bit about Clapton, Beck, and Page ysyrtypy, because I did a speech in high school about the Yardbirds. Ground-breaking shit, believe me.
As for a potential paper on the transformation of R&B, I think I'd have to spend a ridiculous amount of time doing research, finding all the proponents that helped the transition into contemporary R&B. I've only got maybe a week and a half to write this paper, so I think I'll just play it safe.
Thanks for all the feedback though. I'd be interested in hearing more of your opinions on the matter.
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He straddled both sides of that transition and innovated, all at once. In a pinch he could sit down and play all the instruments on a track, in any traditional style he wanted (guitar rock, soul balllad, etc.).. Plus he could do the synth/drum machine thing too. And invent whole new stuff of his own: "Oh, I'm bored today. I think I'll cut a radio megahit with NO BASS."kdarr wrote:I'm surprised no one mentioned Prince. He was a HUGE transitional figure from 70's funk to 80's drum machine & synth-powered R&B.
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An album like SIGN O THE TIMES has a nice buffet of all that: the old thing, the new thing, and the Prince thing.
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