Can the public radio model work for bands?

[Leviethan]

I'm trying to find out if people will invest in a band (or solo artist) before a CD is made. You can download "A Mass In Empty Space," the first song from my new album at the Virb page below. It was recorded on a Tascam 16 track 1" and mixed in Logic with UAD plugs. You can read about the financing proposal on my website.

Levi
www.virb.com/leviethancecil
www.leviethancecil.com

[JGriffin]

Check out the "fan-financed-album" stories about Marillion and Jill Sobule for a couple of real-world points of view on this.

[Leviethan]

Yeah, I heard an NPR story about Jill Sobule. She raised 85 grand for her album! I'm only trying to raise 4000, and if I'm lucky, enough on top of that to make vinyl. Shouldn't be too terribly hard, but it is going slowly.

[JGriffin]

Jill Sobule also has a 20-year history of major label albums and a big fanbase to build on. Your mileage will probably vary.

[Leviethan]

Well of course. I'm well aware of that. I've mostly approached family, friends and the few fans I have. I'm just putting it out there in the world to see what people think. Like I said, I'm only trying to raise 4 grand. One week in and I've already raised 10%. I think that's pretty good mileage for a nobody with no major label experience!

[ott0bot]

the only downside to the NPR style thing is that your next album will have to be filled with commercials for you're own music thanking those who donated. maybe you can give away coffee cups or a dvd for those large donations or call them "Platinum" sponsers and built a tree in a rainforest in their honor....or better yet write a song with their name in the title.

i'm sorry about that...i'm kidding.
I'm sure if you keep trying and be persistant you can make it work to at least get a small release for your album from donations. But why aren't you willing to finance it yourself by working to pay for it?

[Leviethan]

I've done that many times, I'm over it. I don't want to have another box of debt in my closet. People say they're going to buy your CD, but most don't. My last CD paid for itself, but just barely. I'm debt free now, and I plan to stay that way. I'd rather let people know that there will be a CD... IF they help. It's more incentive for them to buy it up front. It's working so far. I feel like this way, I'm not desperate to sell CDs to pay off credit card bills.

[daved]

I have to say I absolutely HATE the public radio model. Frankly I'd rather listen to 20 commercial minutes/broadcast-hour to enduring a week-long grovelfest and guilt slam. Its offensive on so many levels. For instance a station around here bought out most of it's public competitors that were the big NPR stations in order to prop up a low-listener classical station; one of their favorite appeals is to whine about their quarterly $247,000 loan payments (entirely unrelated to programming and operating expenses!) to pay for buyouts that listeners never asked for or wanted... then they have the balls to say "it's _your_ station..."

no. If it was my station, the classical outfit would have gone under, the others would have slimmed down to fit their budgets, and they'd have no $247,000 debt service hanging over their head!

I rant. I apologize.

Point being: It will be a cold day in hell before I sign up for the forced march of subscription models to support a band's production of an imaginary record. I'm gonna sound like an old man (when I was a boy we walked 15 miles through snow with no shoes...), but even when CDs were expensive to make, artists could finance releases. Today it's cheaper than ever in history to make records. Why would anyone need money on the scale being talked about (>$10K)? Spending other peoples money on promo, tour support, etc, I guess? Seriously... if you can't get someone legit to pay for it, and you're unwilling to assume the risk yourself, why should fans roll the dice? I can have more fun losing money at a casino than on a crappy record. At the bottom of the food chain, more records are crappy than good, so this bet is on par with a slot machine.

Jill Sobule's experiment is cool and makes sense for her. That's a different story as others have noted. I don't begrudge artists trying this model. Still I don't see how urging casual fans to prospectively send money to bandfolk is a positive thing. Busking is a time-honored tradition, often quite entertaining and a good way to learn how to work an audience on a personal level. As a form of "recording busking" it's fine I guess. But it's a giant step backwards, from a business perspective. If that's what it's come to, it's a little disturbing to see a once-viable industry rise and fall in a little over a century. I guess this is how GM workers/suppliers feel!

-d-

[chris harris]

I disagree with Dave about public radio. I'm not all that put off by the annual fund raising. I do contribute. And, I think that the fund-raising is much, much less offensive than the super loud, super annoying corporate commercials that blast from every other station on the FM dial.

But, I totally agree with Dave about the public radio model being applied to releasing records.

The reality is, if you're contemplating this, then you probably are unsure if you've got enough fans to make it work. And, to be brutally honest, you probably don't. I know this because if you did, and you knew it, then you wouldn't hesitate to front the money yourself, knowing that you'd make it back when the record comes out.

[Leviethan]

You guys are right. I don't have a sizable fan base. I play in three bands, including my solo project, and the bands are much busier and more popular than my thing. I mostly do it for my own pleasure/outlet, and for my friends and family. However, I am not afraid to say it: I'm a good songwriter/arranger and I produce good records! They are definitely not crappy, Dave. I've been a student of the album my entire life, and I strive to make good ones. Check out the reviews of my last album on the MySpace page if you don't believe me. I agree with you Dave, people's budgets for records are absurdly high. I'm doing all this for less than $4000. That's not a lot of money, but it's more cash than I have on hand right now.

Since I don't do a lot of touring and focus 100% on my project yet, I haven't gotten it out there to a wider audience. So no, I don't have money to do this. I've put past albums on credit cards and then sweated to pay them off. I will not do that again, especially not in this economic climate. The point of this is to get the people who love my music involved on more of a passive level. It may seem like I'm trying to pass the buck to them so I don't have to take a risk. That's partly true. I'm just tired of people coming up to me after shows and saying, "I love your music." and not buying a CD. Or friends telling me "I love your record, I play it for other people all the time and they love it too." Logic has pushed me to the conclusion that I should enlist all of these people in the actual creation, promotion and distribution of this music. Why not?! If you buy a CD after it's made, you're just a passive consumer. If you invest roughly the same amount of money upfront, then you're INVOLVED in the music, if even on a small level. That's a huge psychological difference. I realize that people who don't know me could give a f**k less about me or my CD, so I'm going to have to rely on my family and friends. I knew that going in. I also know that there are enough people out there who are into my music to make this thing work. I've already raised 25% of what I need in one week .

I really like this debate, though. I just wanted to see what perfect strangers thought of the idea. It's very interesting.

I agree that the public radio pitch can be annoying as hell. But it's far less annoying that the same 100 songs over and over again every day, up against patronizing ads for garbage that nobody needs. Commercial radio needs to die, like yesterday.

www.myspace.com/deepnorthmusic

[;ivlunsdystf]

The so-called 'public radio model' is actually not so different from the satellite radio model, in that the listener pays a periodic toll for access to the stream of information.

I personally don't like that public radio gets nonprofit status even though they basically have 'ads' (but they can't call them ads, they have to call them sponsors and talk about them in sotto voce as part of their nonprofit situation). But i also don't think churches should have nonprofit status.

*ducks*

There was a similar thread to this one a few months ago and i asked then: Why can't you declare yourself a nonprofit? OP, I wish you could (but only because public radio gets to be a nonprofit too)

EDIT: Good luck, OP. Interesting idea. Keep us updated on your progress eh.

[JGriffin]

Commercial radio needs to die, like yesterday.

I hope not; I have rent to pay.

[JGriffin]

The so-called 'public radio model' is actually not so different from the satellite radio model, in that the listener pays a periodic toll for access to the stream of information.

I personally don't like that public radio gets nonprofit status even though they basically have 'ads' (but they can't call them ads, they have to call them sponsors and talk about them in sotto voce as part of their nonprofit situation). But i also don't think churches should have nonprofit status.

*ducks*

There was a similar thread to this one a few months ago and i asked then: Why can't you declare yourself a nonprofit? OP, I wish you could (but only because public radio gets to be a nonprofit too)

EDIT: Good luck, OP. Interesting idea. Keep us updated on your progress eh.

Many of our local theatres have not-for-profit status as well, yet they sell tickets/have subscribers/accept grants and solicit donations. Perhaps we need to examine the nature of not-for-profit status and why certain businesses fall into this category.

[Leviethan]

Yeah, Non-profit is a very weird grey area. Sorry to lash out at commercial radio man, I just really hate it. They co-opted our airwaves long ago and have filled them with serious garbage. I've heard that some commercial stations are going to public radio route because advertising is drying up. I find it hard to believe that people listening to the same 10 Zeppelin songs and the same 20 Stones songs all day every day are going to feel the need to pay for that. If FM went back it's roots and played stuff that wasn't just hits, then maybe people would care. I'm talking soulless Clear Channel/Entercom type stations that seem to broadcast endlessly from the fourth ring of hell. There are some cool FM stations here and there. The best ones though, KEXP, KXLU, WFMU, etc survive and thrive on listener contributions. They play music people want to hear. That said, I hope you don't lose your job either.

I will keep you posted on progress. A little bit more comes in almost every day. YES WE CAN! Sorry.

[ThePitz]

I am all for the public radio model. Publicly funded radio is the only radio that I can stomach these days at ALL.

There's a station here in New Orleans - WWOZ - that is entirely community funded and volunteer run. It is the greatest radio station in the world. They have fund drives a few times a year - but it never bugs me. This radio station pays local musicians GOOOOD money to come in and play in their studios. Every odd hour they list EVERY GIG in the city - all you have to do is call and tell them when and where. Most of the playlist - which is entirely chosen by the !VOLUNTEER! DJ - is music from LOCAL musicians. They broadcast live events ALL of the time - including every performance in the jazz tent at Jazzfest (happening right now.)

And there are no commercials.

I think what was said about people 'participating' in the creation of music is spot on. People donate do WWOZ because WWOZ keeps food in local musician's stomachs.

I think it is far cooler to be able to say "I helped that dude record that album," than it is to say "I gave that dude's label twelve bucks."

If you get any money at all - (which you have) it is a worthy endeavor.