Every time I hear "Penny Lane" lately,

[MoreSpaceEcho]

wow, good thread. don't have much to say that hasn't been said already, but i've had a number of records come across my desk in recent years where i was quite impressed with 'the kids' ability to swing.

the only other thing i can think to add regarding swing is listen to guns n' roses with and without steven adler.

[MoreSpaceEcho]

ok, really the only other thing i have to add, a pet peeve has always been rock drummers who're playing a tune with a swing feel, and they're playing it just fine, but then they do a straight fill across it. hateful! cracker's "low" for example. a couple straight snare hits mar an otherwise perfect rock song.

ok really for real, just one more, who swings harder: eddie or alex?

[percussion boy]

Tying a bunch of comments together, & adding a little more:

There's a lot of magic that a really good rhythm section musician can do to make a track groove or "swing":

1. Part of it is about how far ahead or behind the click, and the other musicians, you are, while still maintaining the same tempo as everybody else. Think of two cars both going 60 mph downt the highway, but one is always 20 feet ahead of the other.

2. Part of it is about how much the musician "pulls" the offbeats away from the grid, in a consistent way. Example: Where Elvin Jones puts the middle note of the cymbal beat is different from where Philly Joe Jones puts it; if you play that note a little early, like Elvin, it's easier to be behind the beat (see #1); Play the middle note a little late, like Phillly, and it's easier to be ahead of the beat. Both ways can work.

Another example: Most good backbeat drummers "squeeze" the ANDs of all the beats, so they come slightly early. This makes the 1, 2, 3, and 4 tend to feel more relaxed -- sort of an "anti-shuffle." It's surprising how much someone like Bernard Purdie warps the beat in this way; with the other instruments added, the 8th notes of the drum part sound even when they're really not.

3. Part of it is dynamics and note lengths of different notes in a part. A keyboard or bass player who isn't sensitive about ENDING each note in a rhythmic way will have trouble swinging.

4. Multiply #1-3 by a whole rhythm section of great musicians -- some slightly ahead of the beat, some behind, some closer to a swing feel, others closer to straight 8ths, and so on -- and you get something really great. The listener can feel the time but can't quite locate it, and this is attractive . . . and swinging.

(To bring this back to Penny Lane: It would be interesting to hear the mulitirack, and check out Paul's part, Ringo's part, etc. -- SEPARATELY. Or separately with a click as reference.)

Two problems:

1. Musicians who don't do #1-4 above, or can't.

2. Engineers who "fix" swinging rhythm tracks with a grid in Pro Tools, when said engineers don't understand the stuff above and think these nuances are "mistakes," and that everyone should play even subdivisions, with the quarter notes right on the click.

Hope this adds to the discussion somehow.

[Seamonster]

Nice thread.

With implicit reference to various sub-threads here, one thing I sometimes think about is the effect that grid editing and drum machines are having on up-and-coming players? sense of groove, even just within straight time.

As more of the music that one hears in daily life has come to be tied tighter to the mathematically-square beat ? either by grid editing or ?machine? ? the more one hears that as the norm, and the more one may be influenced to reproduce that unconsciously in one?s playing. It?s a cultural influence, analogous to the way that some teenagers these days sing naturally with an affect that sounds like autotune artifacts. They hear that edgy, artificial sort of nasally quality as an inherent aspect of the vocal style they like; they absorb it and mimic it unconsciously.

Similarly, a decreased emphasis on dynamic playing in current pop genres may be related to the way that so much material is smashed to one volume, loud. That?s how we?re used to hearing it, so that?s how many people play. (Of course, this cultural effect has been operating ever since the advent of cylinders and LPs with their limited dynamic range, then with radio limiters, etc., and has simply become more pronounced in the current era of ?the loudness war?.)

There must be some deeper cultural implications of the mechanization of the beat. Historically, ?machine time? was the province of military music, useful for keeping marching footsteps synchronized. Now, when I call the bank and am put on hold, I?m treated to cheezy MIDI-fied schlock that?s fully ?grid-locked.? Apparently, that music is meant to keep me calm or distracted or something, but to me it mostly feels like it?s saying ?you will submit to the machine and love it.? Music can be powerfully suggestive, used in both therapy and torture.

To the extent that the music around us in daily life is our folk music, you?ve gotta wonder what sort of folk we?re becoming. It?s not a simple relationship; the causality involves feedback loops, i.e., ?which came first, the beat or the beater??

The next time someone pulls up next to you at a stoplight with their music pounding, notice whether that groove is being played by a human, a machine, or a human entrained (or edited) to sound like a machine. Then observe whether that person in the car looks like they?re living in a moment of war, love, sex, or whatever. Are they smiling?

[chris harris]

No band will ever swing like Count Basie's band for a variety of reasons. One being that no one today is currently living in the 30's, 40's, and 50's when swing style music was ubiquitous. It was in the air, the water and what everybody ate.

Oh, crap! You mean, swing was already dead before Ringo even tracked Penny Lane?!?!

I don't agree that there is way more great fucking art created today than ever before in history. There's way more art, that's for sure. Speaking musically, there's definitely more recording being done now than ever before.

If recording ended today, without a single song ever being recorded again, there is more outstanding music out there to last a thousand lifetimes. There's over a hundred years worth of music to listen to. Millions of hours worth. You don't have to search for what's currently being recorded to satiate your appetite for what moves you.

Luckily, it continues on. That's why, 50 years from now, people will say "Nobody plays like Sigor Ros anymore" and, "Did everybody understand lyrics in Icelandic back then?"

I could spend my entire life sifting through today's music to find some really cool gems, while wasting a significant part of my life on music that doesn't move me. Or, I can just put on Penny Lane every once and a while and enjoy it again.

There's way more music out there that I love that will last me the rest of my life. Every once in a while, I'll hear something new that moves me. I hope that will always happen.

I'm not sure that eveyone in this thread or on this board has their art spoon fed to them.

But, you just said that you're not really interested in seeking it out. You're content to fall back on the old stuff. And, that's fine. It's when that is accompanied by the attitude that music today sucks or has lost something magical that it used to have that I get offended. It's just not true.

My generation [I'm 39] has never been in the driver's seat when it comes to swing.

What great art is is only an opinion and it doesn't have to be a commodity at all.

In my opinion, the best art is made without the Ego being involved. There is no ulterior motive whatsoever. You just make art because you have to, not because you want to sell records.

I'm sure you will agree on at least some of what I write here.

I'm not arguing in favor of music as a commodity. I'm just suggesting that when musicianship and songs were what they were selling, it was much easier for the average listener to come into contact with greatness. Now, they've decided that tits and ass are easier to sell than musicianship and great songwriting. So, you get ridiculous bullshit from old-timers about how Taylor Swift can't sing, and therefor NOBODY can sing like Sinatra anymore.

It's failed logic. And, whether we agree about this or not, I feel that it's indicative of a lack of adventurous spirit and a lack of motivation to see past the radio or the awards shows. Ladies and gentlemen, unfortunately the mainstream isn't where the best music exists today. Unfortunately, the cream doesn't rise to the top.... unless you're talking about whipped cream and bikinis. Anyone complaining about the state of music today should at least understand the state of music today.

[Mudcloth]

This thread has gone several different directions over the past few days and I have to say it?s beyond intriguing. It?s become contentious, humorous, insightful, and eye opening among other things. I apologize in advance for how much messageboard space this reply will take up.

No band will ever swing like Count Basie's band for a variety of reasons. One being that no one today is currently living in the 30's, 40's, and 50's when swing style music was ubiquitous. It was in the air, the water and what everybody ate.

Oh, crap! You mean, swing was already dead before Ringo even tracked Penny Lane?!?!

No, I think Basie's band played played until the early 80's.

I don't agree that there is way more great fucking art created today than ever before in history. There's way more art, that's for sure. Speaking musically, there's definitely more recording being done now than ever before.
If recording ended today, without a single song ever being recorded again, there is more outstanding music out there to last a thousand lifetimes. There's over a hundred years worth of music to listen to. Millions of hours worth. You don't have to search for what's currently being recorded to satiate your appetite for what moves you.
Luckily, it continues on. That's why, 50 years from now, people will say "Nobody plays like Sigor Ros anymore" and, "Did everybody understand lyrics in Icelandic back then?"
I could spend my entire life sifting through today's music to find some really cool gems, while wasting a significant part of my life on music that doesn't move me. Or, I can just put on Penny Lane every once and a while and enjoy it again.
There's way more music out there that I love that will last me the rest of my life. Every once in a while, I'll hear something new that moves me. I hope that will always happen.
I'm not sure that eveyone in this thread or on this board has their art spoon fed to them.

But, you just said that you're not really interested in seeking it out. You're content to fall back on the old stuff. And, that's fine. It's when that is accompanied by the attitude that music today sucks or has lost something magical that it used to have that I get offended. It's just not true.

I don't know what you mean by "old stuff". That could mean Otis Redding, Bach, Police, or Wilco; depending on how old you are. You don't have to be offended by anything. You don't have to defend new music to older generations. You don't need their/our respect. All you have to do is make music you love, and if somebody doesn't get it, fuck 'em. You might feel that about me here in a couple of paragraphs.
I don't know why I'm not as hungry for new music as I used to be. It's not because I think new music sucks and it's not what it used to be. It is most assuredly not accompanied by the attitude that today's music sucks or has lost something magical that it used to have. On the contrary, there is music being made today that I love to listen to.
The problem is, honestly, when I listen to the local college radio station; run by students who are "on the cutting edge" of what's out there, it's almost always some craptacular fucking noise band with zero skills. If I listen to the other college radio station, run by paid dj's, it's mostly the same sounding indie rock crap with either a male singer sounding like a pussy pretending to have an English accent while wearing a sweater vest or some cutesy sounding female vocalist with some really clever things to say trying to get on the next "Juno" style soundtrack. That stuff is finding it's way into more mainstream markets everyday. I know there's more out there besides what I just described, but I don't have the time to find it.
Instead, I play music that I enjoy listening to. It cuts right to the chase.

I'm not arguing in favor of music as a commodity. I'm just suggesting that when musicianship and songs were what they were selling, it was much easier for the average listener to come into contact with greatness. Now, they've decided that tits and ass are easier to sell than musicianship and great songwriting. So, you get ridiculous bullshit from old-timers about how Taylor Swift can't sing, and therefor NOBODY can sing like Sinatra anymore.

It's failed logic. And, whether we agree about this or not, I feel that it's indicative of a lack of adventurous spirit and a lack of motivation to see past the radio or the awards shows. Ladies and gentlemen, unfortunately the mainstream isn't where the best music exists today. Unfortunately, the cream doesn't rise to the top.... unless you're talking about whipped cream and bikinis. Anyone complaining about the state of music today should at least understand the state of music today.

I am painfully aware of the state of music today, as I was painfully aware of the state of music in the 90's, the 80's and the 70's. The mainstream was very rarely where the best music came from, in my opinion. There was plenty of great music in those decades that never got airplay.
I could go on for hours about what I think is wrong with the state of music today. I have a feeling that you and I are on the same page on that one. Don't get me started on awards shows, man.

I'm not aware of any old timers arguing that because Taylor Swift can't sing nobody can sing like Sinatra anymore. Nobody can sing like Sinatra anymore because it was a long time ago and the world was different, not because there's a lack of talent out there right now.

:Edit to say that these issues addressed here come from the original comments regarding bands not being able to swing nowadays. I believe this thread is still primarily about swinging/not swinging/how to swing through reading internet postings, etc.: