What to charge for new release?

[jrdamien]

As many of you know, I just finished and releases this record recorded on a Tascam 388:

www.thecrookedsaws.bandcamp.com

I've just finished the cd packaging but don't know what to charge and am worried I'm charging too much. So the package is hand silk-screened and comes with a nice booklet and inner cd sleeve/out package sleeve. It's kind of the dream digipak. I'm charging $15, which includes a free download.

Is $15 too much? And, if so, what's a good price to charge?

[Gregg Juke]

Hey JR,

Who knows what's going on these days? Not me (or anyone else-- if they tell you so, they are boldfaced lying).

That being said, I think $15 for what you describe is absolutely reasonable. I'm hoping to do something similar with our next release. If I can somehow make the numbers work without going broke, I'd like to do a full CD album, packaged with a download card and a 45 single or EP version of a couple of the album tunes, all for something in the $15 range(?). So I guess your guess is as accurate as mine or anyone else's. I suppose if folks balk at the price after a while, you'll know what to do...

GJ

[Nick Sevilla]

Well, all I can tell you is:
You must take into account some of this:

1.- The cost of manufacturing each Complete CD.
2.- The labor of shipping the CD. How long does it take you to package the CD and drop it into a mailbox, rady for the mailman to ship?
3.- The shipping cost for the CD. Typically USPS has a Media Mail option which can be very reasonable.
4.- Recouping costs from making the music on the CD. This can be averaged out to a large number of CDs,if desired.

As an example, Say the initial run to produce 1000 CDs was:

The recording process. 8000 USD
The Mastering. 500 USD
Misc expenses. 1500 USD (travel, food, lodging etc.)
The Artwork. 500 USD if you used someone to design the jacket, sleeve, etc.
Duplication. 900 USD

Total : 11400 USD.

Now include the packaging for shipping plus shipping, say 3.00US per CD
Labor for shipping, say 4.00US because you're fast.
For a projected 1000 CDs shipped : 7000USD for shipping and handling.

11400 + 7000 = 18400 USD layout.

Into only 1000 CDs : 18400 / 1000 = 18.40 USD.

This would not include any food or other expenses for anyone helping you package and ship the CDs, run around promoting them, etc.

And, if you decide to charge, say, 12.99 per CD plus Sh&H, then you're looking at

11400 recoupable cost, Plus only a super minimal handling cost to keep things nice and low price, say 2.00 US for handling (remember it costs gas and time to get from your home to the post office, don't shortchange yourself) then 2000US for handling.

13400 US for recoupable costs into 1000 CDs at 12.99 per CD, you'd end up owing yourself 410 bucks. Tax and shipping is on the buyer, but you have to report and pay that tax to the man... when you do your income or business taxes.

So, ideally, for 1000 CDs in our fantasy price scenario, you'd want to charge to break even 13.40 per CD. This means after all that work you get a delicious 0.00 profit.

If you want profit? Then either make the CD cheaper to make, without that fancy 16 color layout and a 4 color one instead, plus only use the cheapest sleeves they sell, and also, try to really clamp down onnthe cost of the recording, when possible, and charge that 4 bucks for handling for the shipping part of it.

Cheers

[jrdamien]

Well, all I can tell you is:
You must take into account some of this:

1.- The cost of manufacturing each Complete CD.
2.- The labor of shipping the CD. How long does it take you to package the CD and drop it into a mailbox, rady for the mailman to ship?
3.- The shipping cost for the CD. Typically USPS has a Media Mail option which can be very reasonable.
4.- Recouping costs from making the music on the CD. This can be averaged out to a large number of CDs,if desired.

As an example, Say the initial run to produce 1000 CDs was:

The recording process. 8000 USD
The Mastering. 500 USD
Misc expenses. 1500 USD (travel, food, lodging etc.)
The Artwork. 500 USD if you used someone to design the jacket, sleeve, etc.
Duplication. 900 USD

Total : 11400 USD.

Now include the packaging for shipping plus shipping, say 3.00US per CD
Labor for shipping, say 4.00US because you're fast.
For a projected 1000 CDs shipped : 7000USD for shipping and handling.

11400 + 7000 = 18400 USD layout.

Into only 1000 CDs : 18400 / 1000 = 18.40 USD.

This would not include any food or other expenses for anyone helping you package and ship the CDs, run around promoting them, etc.

And, if you decide to charge, say, 12.99 per CD plus Sh&H, then you're looking at

11400 recoupable cost, Plus only a super minimal handling cost to keep things nice and low price, say 2.00 US for handling (remember it costs gas and time to get from your home to the post office, don't shortchange yourself) then 2000US for handling.

13400 US for recoupable costs into 1000 CDs at 12.99 per CD, you'd end up owing yourself 410 bucks. Tax and shipping is on the buyer, but you have to report and pay that tax to the man... when you do your income or business taxes.

So, ideally, for 1000 CDs in our fantasy price scenario, you'd want to charge to break even 13.40 per CD. This means after all that work you get a delicious 0.00 profit.

If you want profit? Then either make the CD cheaper to make, without that fancy 16 color layout and a 4 color one instead, plus only use the cheapest sleeves they sell, and also, try to really clamp down onnthe cost of the recording, when possible, and charge that 4 bucks for handling for the shipping part of it.

Cheers

I know you put a lot into this, but this is so very unhelpful. No need to give me theoretical costs when the cd is done and for sale. The question of price isn't in the context of making my money back.

[JohnDavisNYC]

I think Nick and Jeff Robinson are starting to share the same consciousness.

john

[Nick Sevilla]

I know you put a lot into this, but this is so very unhelpful. No need to give me theoretical costs when the cd is done and for sale. The question of price isn't in the context of making my money back.

Then... forget what I said. After all, it was only an example.

Without knowing absolutely anything other than "what should I charge?" it kinda left it wide open for a nice late night diatribe.

So, charge whatever you think you want per CD.

Cheers

[Nick Sevilla]

I think Nick and Jeff Robinson are starting to share the same consciousness.

john

Lol... it was late last night, and I had forgotten to take my anti JR pills...

I feel better now...

[dfuruta]

$15 seems totally reasonable for a cd with nice, hand-made packaging.

Maybe offer a wholesale price also, if you can find some indie record stores who want copies.

[fossiltooth]

I'm going to have to agree with John on this one. I don't doubt the validity of your breakdown, Nick -- I'm just not sure it's relevant.

For artists who have the potential to reach a wide enough audience to sell 1,000+ CDs in a short span without any trouble, this breakdown might be worthwhile. But for most new artists without label, management, or PR support, a CD functions more like the demos of yesteryear did. The primary difference is that today, artists aren't demoing to label people -- they're demoing to a potential audience (And hopefully, recouping some of the costs along the way.)

If I was in a fairly new band without a real budget or support, I'd probably use the album more as an audience-building tool. You could:
---Burn CDs yourself, as you need them, and include cool handmade artwork or hand-numbered inserts and sell them for at shows for $5-10.
---Offer downloads on Bandcamp for $1-10, or let potential fans name their own price.
---Press limited-edition vinyl records and sell those at shows for $10-$20 plus a free download.
---Sell T-Shirts for $15-25 and include a free download.
---Sell bumper stickers and posters and pins and light-up keychains for $5 and include a free download.
---Dream up and sell VIP concert packages... and include a free download.
I would (and do) buy any and all of those things.

Once you have a wide enough audience to quickly and easily move 1000+ CDs or full-priced downloads, then yes, definitely start crunching the numbers the way Nick has done here. He's right to say that if you're establishing a meaningful commercial business and don't take your costs into account, you will starve to death. (This goes for art as well as anything else.) But until you have that kind of megaphone, Nick's strategy is probably a misguided one for both breaking even and for getting any exposure.

You just need to figure out what makes sense for your position. Long story short: unless there's some information I'm missing about how wide your reach is, I probably wouldn't recommend going the glass-mastered traditional retail CD route at $18 a pop like Nick has suggested here.

Even for mainstream artists, that's quickly becoming a less and less relevant distro option. I did sound for Amanda Palmer this week (formerly of Dresden Dolls) and found out that she just made a record-breaking $1Million through Kickstarter. Hardly any of that came from traditionally-priced CD-only premiums. Food for thought.

[E-money]

$15 seems like a lot of money to me. I'd pay $15 if the Beatles released a new album of material, but not for an unknown artist.

I guess what you might take into consideration is this: How many $15 CDs do you think you will sell versus how many you would sell if you charged $5? If the answer is the same for both, then sell if for $15 and try to recoup some of your investment.
Then ask yourself, would I rather a few people hear my music, or a lot of people. If the answer is a few, charge $15 and try to recoup some of your investment. If the answer is as many people as possible, I think you need a different game-plan altogether.

[kslight]

I was watching the same Amanda Palmer campaign on Kickstarter...as well as her other campaigns. She is really awesome at the Kickstarter game.

My singer's other band just raised $5600 on Kickstarter for their second album. They are not huge and they are seven years since their first record.

A different band I was going to be recording if they had a successful campaign only managed $2600 (quite short of their projected goal).


If it were me releasing another record right now I'd be looking at doing a Kickstarter campaign to really help you with the decision. Granted, your record is already done (I'm assuming?). That's okay. Now you've got to say...how much is this going to cost me to manufacture. Dream up some interesting but inexpensive to produce packages for people that want to pledge more, and some less expensive ones for people that just want to download and not buy a CD. Set a goal for your funding.

Then you are essentially using Kickstarter as a presale platform and hopefully as a method to prevent yourself from charging yourself into the hole getting stuff made that won't sell right away.

Hopefully set a goal to get enough stuff made for the campaign pledgers, as well as merch to sell at shows. But keep in mind if you set your goal higher than you achieve at the end of your campaign...you get nothing. If you do achieve your goal Kickstarter gets 9%.

[chris harris]

You're getting awesome responses in this thread to help you get an idea for what the market (and the world, for that matter) are like out there. Selling music right now is complicated. And, many people are flailing about trying to figure out interesting ways to convince people to assign value to their hard work.

The vast majority of people in the world only think of these things in business terms, whether it's the business of making and selling records, or the business of personal finance and allocation of entertainment budget. That's where you'll find advice like, "add up what it all costs, plus what you wanna make, and divide by the number of discs". And, while some of us in the indie culture may find it shocking that someone would "pay $15 if the Beatles released a new album of material, but not for an unknown artist" (c'mon... really?!?!), that's the reality of how most people look at music.

Most people in the music buying public won't give a shit that you hand screen printed your CD jackets. And, the people who do would probably be more interested in it if it was a 12" jacket. That's a hard truth.... But, it is pretty accurate from my experience. CDs are hard to sell in 2012, period. Maybe if you're making pop hits, and selling your records through a major label at Best Buy, then there is still a big market for CDs. But, not so much in our indie world.

So, you should consider that... if the art is something that will add a perceived increase in value for people in your intended market, then charge what you think the ART is worth. Because the reality is, the CD itself, and the audio that lives on the CD, isn't very highly valued by modern music consumers. In fact, for many, the CD just adds an extra, inconvenient step between acquiring the music, and hearing it on their chosen portable device.

My band has chosen to just give away our digital files. That way, we maintain some control of the initial quality of the files available. They're gonna get out there anyway. I'm not in a well known band or anything. But, all of our band's records have been widely distributed on the internet not long after release. THEN, we try to make the physical products appeal to people who: 1. Care about supporting band, and 2. Still assign some value to art and physical containers for music.

We're not raking in the money. But, we're not hemorrhaging it either.

Without seeing the packaging, or knowing anything at all about your band or your fan base and their preferences, I'd suggest starting with $10 and seeing how far that gets you. I'm accustomed to paying $10 at shows to buy CDs directly from bands, regardless of the quality of, or hard work that went into, the packaging. That said, if the band really knocked me out that night, and/or the packaging is REALLY cool, then I wouldn't hesitate to drop $15 on the CD. But, I'm definitely more supportive of bands that your average consumer.

Good luck!

[ott0bot]

some great responses here already....most notebly offering digital downloads with your cd purchase. Personally, I think selling for for $10 at shows or $15 shippped is fair.

it's odd....i really don't know anyone who listens to actual cd's very often. It's usually records or digital. That's why for the project I'm working on now I suggested vinyl with a digital download coupon. Probably selling for 15 at show and 20 online.

I mean, lets face it guys...selling records isn't about making money anymore unless your a pop star. It's about networking to get exposure to get shows and have money for another album and be able to eat.

So losing money on CD's you put all that work into is a given...but what will it ultimately yield is the question.

[kslight]

And, many people are flailing about trying to figure out interesting ways to convince people to assign value to their hard work.
Maybe if you're making pop hits, and selling your records through a major label at Best Buy, then there is still a big market for CDs. But, not so much in our indie world.

My band has chosen to just give away our digital files. That way, we maintain some control of the initial quality of the files available. They're gonna get out there anyway. I'm not in a well known band or anything. But, all of our band's records have been widely distributed on the internet not long after release. THEN, we try to make the physical products appeal to people who: 1. Care about supporting band, and 2. Still assign some value to art and physical containers for music.

This pretty much. I have a CD out that is available in many of the major distro channels, and having that doesn't mean shit in terms of sales. And once your album is available for stealing online then you have a bunch of paperweights.

However the value of a CD in the eye of the average consumer is minimal. Yes I will buy a good live band's CD at a show for $10. $15 maybe if they blew me away...but even the major distro'ed acts don't usually get $15 out of me in store. I do look at the packaging, but having something handmade doesn't increase the amount that I'm going to pay. I do buy vinyl as well, I'll pay more for that.. In my opinion, most packaging/design on any CD I have bought in recent years sucks, too many amateur designers out there I guess combined with the changing printing industry (and/or the designer is the band/label instead of an independent entity), unless you are particularly gifted I pretty much expect it to be crap anyway.

I am also not exactly in favor of giving the whole album away just because you've given up on the system. Then you devalue your own work. At least put up a donation link on your website if you're going to go that route... And make a Kickstarter campaign to have a small run of physical product made (whatever medium you decide). I would generally advise having physical product sold then offering for download than the other way around for marketing purposes.. Yes it will end up there anyway but I think you would sell more initially if it wasn't already out there.

[jrdamien]

Very good replies - much food for thought.

I do know that, in the future, I'm only going to do vinyl. I would have done it for this release but the dollars were not there. I'd rather sell a nice 7" with two good songs and free downloads than a cd.

I also think $15 is too much. I know popular bands can get away with it, but... Good thing we did a Kickstarter to cover a good deal of the expense.