My band's debut album - alternative/indie-rock

Discussion on new albums, developing listening skills, critical listening to others' work, as well as TOMB members' MP3 links, online recording critiques

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Gelatelli
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Post by Gelatelli » Fri Aug 02, 2013 1:14 pm

Gregg Juke wrote:Yeah, I probably shouldn't have said anything at all, playful or not, but I was apparently right in surmising a bit of a "I'm the Man" attitude in this cat's response, and I had a moment and got all protector-y and whatnot, which then opened me up to this completely unwarranted criticism ...

Sorry I stuck my neck out to shoot down some high-flying BS, because, well, Nick is entitled to his opinion, even if it's sometimes harsh, because he has the experience and the knowledge, and the history here at the TOMB, to back it up-- and as Ubertar said, sometimes this is a tough place to post finished material. But Gelatelli? How about earning some community-participation points before spouting off about how great you are and how much better you could do it?!? Seriously??? End rant. GJ
Ok, well I'll make this one my last post on it. Sorry if I didn't realize you were trying to be playful - seemed pretty snide to me. Secondly, you say my criticism was unwarranted - why, just because you disagree with it? Third, I don't need any points to say what I like or don't like. If you respect those other's remarks just because they hang around here more than I do then that's fine, but at the end of the day it's all just opinions.

I did a very positive review of a song by a guy named Guitar Jeff - if you type in his name you will find it, but unfortunately the song is no longer available - a while ago. Loved the song - best I've ever heard on any message board. Just tons of feeling - not just making music to some kind of formula - and very personal. I was surprised he would even reveal such personal stuff. Also, great engineering, great production, just plain great. Yet still I believe I did give him one or two critic points. With you, although I'm not a fan of your style, I think your band is good, but your lyrics need tweaking - that's my opinion. The way you are acting, I'm thinking that you didn't really understand my comment, so you took it in a negative way, but there was no need to jump to that conclusion. You can do whatever you want with your lyrics, my friend, and I have no interest in them beyond the comments that I made. So, if you want to call my comments BS, then that's fine with me, but I won't apologize for speaking out what I feel.

Ok, Mr. moderator, NOW you can take it off!

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Post by WillMorgan » Fri Aug 02, 2013 8:54 pm

Gelatelli wrote:Ok, Mr. moderator, NOW you can take it off!
hey wait a minute! Maybe I wouldn't have listened except for the kerfluffle.

To me early on especially it sounds too clean / tightly controlled / not enough room sound but i like tracks 7 and 8 a lot.

thanks!

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Gregg Juke
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Post by Gregg Juke » Sat Aug 03, 2013 12:42 am

Double OY.

So again (just out of a sense of morbid curiosity)-- Geli, my manski, sweetheart, baby, pal-- where can we hear some of your music? You know, anything that you may have written, played on, produced, recorded, etc., just to get a sense of your de facto and inalienable credentials, that might help to establish a basis for making such high-level, professional, and fully verbitized claims of inherent value in your critiques and opinions?????

GJ
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Gelatelli
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Post by Gelatelli » Sat Aug 03, 2013 3:03 am

Yes, I do play and record my own music, but I don't play games with it, which means that I won't post it here just to prove something to somebody. To me it's not important if you like my music or not because it's personal to me. That said, who knows, I may just post something someday.

My credentials come from being a listener since around 1958. I grew up with music in the house - Lou Rawls, the Mills Brothers, Chuck Berry, Jimmy Smith, Wes Montgomery, Sara Vaughn, Ray Charels, BB King, Elle Fitzgerald, Miles Davis - that's some of the stuff my mother listened to and I grew up hearing it every day. Then I remember the Beatles first album, which, as far as I'm concerned, has never been topped. The Dave Clarke Five, Tommy James, The Kinks, Petula Clark, The Temtations, on and on. Then later on Hendrix, The Who, GFRR, Yes, ELP, Chick Corea, Bowie to some extent, Larry Coryell, the Moody Blues, Robin Trower, Blue Oyster Cult, Lynurd Skynurd, Mountain, Stanly Clarke - all the jazz rock stuff - Joni Mitchell. Also the Motown stuff, the Stax stuff, Santana, Johnny Winter, the Allmann Brothers - just on and on, and I still love all that stuff.

Musically I tend to gravitate towards stuff thats a little more harmonically complex then what the average listener can appreciate, like the jazz rock stuff - I don't really like any of this modern music today. Every now and then something will pop through that I like, but very seldon. I don't buy CD's at all except for a Mahavishnu CD I bought recently. To me, music died in 1970 and I haven't much paid attention since then.

The comments that I made about your band and that other band are exactly the same things that I hear in the music that I listen to - which is why I said it. I realize thats unfair because nobody today listens to the music that I listen to, but thats the way it goes I guess.

If you notice in the list of musicians above, it's all highly individual stuff. Today, everybody tries to copy everybody else. If Alanis Morriset makes a hit song then ten copycats pop up to get in on her success. And so it is on this TO board; people making music to formulas instead of expressing whats on their hearts and minds - I hate that.

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Gregg Juke
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Post by Gregg Juke » Sat Aug 03, 2013 6:15 am

>>>>Lots of stuff that is very subjective and yet insubstantial<<<<

Right.

Like I thought.

HIGHLY opinionated, and self-righteous about it (and none too humble, I might add). But you're shooting blanks. You don't even have snake-shot, you're just shooting absolutely and utterly useless blanks.

You have an extremely limited post-count here; prior to this thread, it was selling a few things, and conveniently praising a tune that no longer exists. The rest of your opinionated posts are in this thread, and you start out by saying how much better you could have done it, but your music is too personal, and you'll never post it.

End of discussion. Period.

Other than to say, "please pull your skirt down, you're exposing yourself."

GJ

PS-- You can have the last word if you want; I strongly doubt you'll be able to resist. But this discussion is over, and I strongly suggest that next time you step up, at least wear a maxi-dress instead of a mini-skirt; it will give you more cover for a longer period before you embarrass yourself again...
Gregg Juke
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"He's about to learn the most important lesson in the music business-- 'Never trust people in the music business.' "

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Snarl 12/8
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Post by Snarl 12/8 » Sat Aug 03, 2013 6:50 pm

For me the problem is that "I could/would have done it better" is not constructive criticism. It's kindof implied that that's the kind of criticism people want when they ask for feedback here.

If you just hadn't used that sentence and instead jumped immediately to what, specifically you would have done differently, I don't think anyone would have a problem with it. Or better yet, not what you would have done differently, but what the other person could have done differently. Maybe even taking into account their taste, technical ability, genre, etc., etc.

I, personally, have criticized Gregg's stuff along those lines. I'd like to think that we're still "friends" on TOMB because (I really hope) I never got personal about it.

"I would have done it better" is basically one step removed from an ad hominem attack. People can critique almost anything, as harshly as they want, if they keep it about the work and not the person doing it or the critic. If you kept the discussion in the realm of ideas and concepts and facts there wouldn't be a call to hear your shit either. Which I pretty desperately want to hear now.
Carl Keil

Almost forgot: Please steal my drum tracks. and more.

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Gregg Juke
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Post by Gregg Juke » Sat Aug 03, 2013 8:14 pm

+1 and, "good luck with that." :wink:

GJ
Gregg Juke
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"He's about to learn the most important lesson in the music business-- 'Never trust people in the music business.' "

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ubertar
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Post by ubertar » Sun Aug 04, 2013 8:58 am

Gelatelli...

If music died in 1970, how can you be into all the jazz-rock stuff? "In a Silent Way" was 1969, and that was just the beginning. "Birds of Fire" wasn't til '73. Most of the jazz-rock fusion stuff was early to mid 70s, up until it got cheesy and commercial, with Spyrogira et. al. The genre never recovered. Some of the other groups you mention are 70s too.

I actually agree with a fair amount of what you've said here, but I think you crossed lines with 1) "I could do it better" and 2) Criticizing Gregg's music in this thread. The problem wasn't the content of the criticism, but bringing it up here, when it wasn't the topic of the thread, as an attempt to discredit his opinion. Not the right time or place, or motivation.

All of the artists and groups you mention fall under "popular music", in the broadest sense of the term. Maybe if you expand beyond that a bit, you'll find more stuff you like, both pre- and post- 1970. Here's a piece by one of my favorite contemporary composers, X.J. Scott, from 2011, you might find interesting: https://soundcloud.com/nonoctave/dissol ... articulate

I'm curious to know what you would think of my music... feel free to check it out and send a review via PM. The link is in my sig.
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Post by chris harris » Mon Aug 05, 2013 8:02 am

Gelatelli wrote:To me, music died in 1970 and I haven't much paid attention since then.
'Nuff said. You cannot relate to young people trying to make music today. To pretend that you can is pretentious and embarrassing. Move along.

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Post by chris harris » Mon Aug 05, 2013 8:04 am

Gelatelli wrote:And so it is on this TO board; people making music to formulas instead of expressing whats on their hearts and minds - I hate that.
Oh. I didn't even make it this far on the first read. You can go ahead and fuck right off, grandpa. Your input here is irrelevant.

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Post by chris harris » Mon Aug 05, 2013 8:20 am

Snarl 12/8 wrote:Maybe even taking into account their taste, technical ability, genre, etc., etc.
Exactly!!! If you cannot do that, then your criticism is not constructive. If you cannot do that, then your criticism is INVALID. If you think that there hasn't been any good music since the 70s, then you have no business giving advice to younger people because you're embarrassingly WRONG.
Snarl 12/8 wrote:"I would have done it better" is basically one step removed from an ad hominem attack. People can critique almost anything, as harshly as they want, if they keep it about the work and not the person doing it or the critic. If you kept the discussion in the realm of ideas and concepts and facts there wouldn't be a call to hear your shit either. Which I pretty desperately want to hear now.
Meh... not interested. I'd guess that the chances of it being artistically relevant in 2013 are virtually non-existent.

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ubertar
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Post by ubertar » Mon Aug 05, 2013 9:41 am

I think the harsh criticisms of the guy who made a faux pas or two in this thread come off a lot worse than the couple mistakes he made.

To think that music has to be current or that the musician has to be aware of or involved in what's popular at the moment to make music that's "relevant" or have a valid opinion about current music just shows a very narrow view of what music is and what it's for. The ability to put something new in the context of what's gone before is valuable. One thing that goes with it is recognizing how much is unoriginal, derivative and formulaic-- a very high percentage of what's out there. Having that perspective is going to tend to make someone more dismissive of new stuff in general, which is not altogether unwarranted. Of course, it's true that in the past the vast majority of music was also unoriginal, derivative and formulaic, so there's nothing new about that. Still, there are creative peaks that correspond to economic good times and broad cultural changes. The latter is arguable right now, but we're definitely not experiencing the former. The cultural changes we're experiencing now are more just the follow-through or aftershocks from the seismic shift that happened in the 60s, IMO. We seem to be in a very consumerist, materialist phase, similar to what went on in the 80s, a similarly fallow period musically (IMO-- I know there are people here who will argue there was a lot of great stuff happening in the 80s-- I disagree, but it's not something I feel like arguing about).

How is calling someone's opinion "invalid" and saying "fuck off, grandpa" constructive?
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Post by chris harris » Mon Aug 05, 2013 2:45 pm

I'm not trying to be constructive at all. This guy dug up a 6 month old topic, just to trash the OP's work, and has been nothing but a miserable twat about it since. "Fuck off, Grandpa" pretty succinctly gets my message across without any of the "you show me yours, I'll show you mine" defensive nonsense. I have no intention or desire to understand where this jackoff is coming from. We're kicking up another argument about opinions, here. That's kind of stupid. My opinion is, if you can't find something to like in just about every era of recorded music, then you're probably just a terribly un-curious bore. And, it's my opinion that people like that have no business offering up opinions about music, because their exposure to music is limited. And, when people like that give advice in such a matter of fact way, as if there are actually "right" and "wrong" ways to do this stuff, and make references that peg them as hopelessly out of touch with CURRENT music, it's kind of insulting to someone like me, who is actively involved in making CURRENT music and not pining for the old days.

So, yeah... my way of communicating might come off as overly direct, or rude. If so, it's because of frustration from watching over a decade of shitty advice and one-size-fits-all dogma tossed around on messageboards. This post in particular upset me because it was an old post dug up for the express purpose posting a bad review/critique. He's subsequently posted so many obviously shitty quips since then, that I don't feel any further need to defend my shitty comments back.

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Post by chris harris » Mon Aug 05, 2013 2:46 pm

There's a big difference between a "faux pas or two" and the string of shitty comments this guy has made in this thread.

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Post by chris harris » Mon Aug 05, 2013 2:54 pm

ubertar wrote:I think the harsh criticisms of the guy who made a faux pas or two in this thread come off a lot worse than the couple mistakes he made.

To think that music has to be current or that the musician has to be aware of or involved in what's popular at the moment to make music that's "relevant" or have a valid opinion about current music just shows a very narrow view of what music is and what it's for. The ability to put something new in the context of what's gone before is valuable. One thing that goes with it is recognizing how much is unoriginal, derivative and formulaic-- a very high percentage of what's out there. Having that perspective is going to tend to make someone more dismissive of new stuff in general, which is not altogether unwarranted. Of course, it's true that in the past the vast majority of music was also unoriginal, derivative and formulaic, so there's nothing new about that. Still, there are creative peaks that correspond to economic good times and broad cultural changes. The latter is arguable right now, but we're definitely not experiencing the former. The cultural changes we're experiencing now are more just the follow-through or aftershocks from the seismic shift that happened in the 60s, IMO. We seem to be in a very consumerist, materialist phase, similar to what went on in the 80s, a similarly fallow period musically (IMO-- I know there are people here who will argue there was a lot of great stuff happening in the 80s-- I disagree, but it's not something I feel like arguing about).

How is calling someone's opinion "invalid" and saying "fuck off, grandpa" constructive?
FWIW ubertar, I disagree with more than just your opinion of 80s music. But, I don't have any reason or desire to argue about it either. If I saw you being unnecessarily dickish to someone, I still wouldn't want to argue over whether or not your opinion was valid. But, I probably would just tell you to fuck off. Then again, you're a constructive member of this community, so you probably wouldn't ever do anything like that anyway...

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