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jca83
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Post by jca83 » Wed Aug 15, 2007 9:01 am

subatomic pieces wrote:If you've got a legitimate complaint with a TapeOp review, or with a Joel Hamilton post, then fucking say it already. If there is something specific in one of the reviews or posts that you think is an outright lie, bought-and-paid-for by a manufacturer, then fucking say it.
I hope this is public enough for you.

It's quite obvious that Joel is posting "reviews" of gear in this forum with the sole intent of being compensated by the manufacturer. It appears (and he has yet to deny) that he has figured out that the faithful readers of this forum have started taking his advice as fact. That is true -- I can't tell you how many times Joel has "outed" a nice piece of gear, only to have it's eBay price skyrocket in the weeks after.
subatomic pieces wrote:Please don't spoil a friendly and helpful messageboard with this childish bullshit. Do you really expect FULL DISCLOSURE everytime someone recommends a piece of gear?!?! Come on... It's the gawd damn internet for crying out loud.
When I joined this forum, I was a wet-behind-the-ears college student, looking to learn more about recording. This forum was my PARADISE. Just look at the old locked forums -- I learned a lot from this place. I have grown to expect full disclosure from the "experts" on this forum, only because that's what they used to provide. The kind of posts Joel is posting, and the other bull I've come to see on this forum, have made me lose respect for it - friendly? helpful? Only after a word from our sponsors.

And about the "gawd damn internet" bit -- if you expect the internet to be devoid of a bunch of "failed comedians" who nitpick and make fun of everything, uh, you've never been on the internet.
subatomic pieces wrote:Do you expect MORE disclosure from Joel or other professionals/moderators than you do from the guy who claims that his C1000 is the best mic for everything without mentioning that the C1000 is the most "high-end" mic he owns?
Again, I expect the forum to be just that - an open FORUM for discussion. The professionals/moderators should be giving helpful information and encouraging open dialogue about recording, not posting a thinly veiled ADVERTISEMENT for some gear they got on the cheap. I was so disappointed to find Joel's name on an artist endorsement list for some of the gear he "recommends".

And about the "professional" bit, I make my living from music. I am a music industry professional and I have a bachelor's degree in the music business and recording industry. That said, there are some "non-professional" members of this board who have taught me more than I could ever teach them. Just because they're not "sponsored" doesn't mean they can't do something creative and innovative with their C1000. When this magazine and board were created, "creative" and "innovative" meant something.
subatomic pieces wrote:In addition, you're obviously free to STOP READING BOTH THE MAG AND THE FORUM. I appreciate humor (when it's actually funny) and a certain amount of OT shenanigans. But, most members around here DON'T appreciate people taking jabs at the people who go out of their way to provide us with massive amounts of free information.
I have stopped reading both, actually. The magazine still arrives every month and I page through it, slightly disappointed at the higher ratio of ads-to-content than previous issues. The mag was supposed to be a rag-tag side project by a bunch of engineers, not an income stream for a bunch of non-journalists. And yes, I have purchased the TapeOp book and supported however I can (so don't think I'm not appreciative of their hard work).

As for the forum, well, you can clearly see the issues we have with it, so I won't expound. Just know that I (and others) have moved on. If you'll excuse me, I'm going to stop talking about recording and music so I can actually get some done.
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Post by chris harris » Wed Aug 15, 2007 9:38 am

I don't really know (as much as you guys claim to) about Joel's endorsement deals. But, I do feel that receiving free or discounted gear as part of an endorsement deal is totally different than receiving cash to promote a product that you don't even use.

Look at their studio. Look at the gear and resourses that they have available. Do you think that they NEED free or discounted gear?!?! If Joel feels like posting about a piece of gear, and details what he likes about it, and often gives examples on records that have been released where you can hear the gear in action, I really don't care if he has an endorsement deal with them.

While I can see you guys getting aggrivated about ebay prices skyrocketing when Joel mentions a piece that he likes, what the fuck does that have to do with endorsements or advertising?!?! It happens anytime ANYONE who has (through their work) EARNED the respect of the readers, mentions any cool old, used gear. A Joel Hamilton post doesn't raise the MSRP of new gear.

Again, if you feel like Joel's integrity is compromised, detail why. I've bought a few pieces based on Joel's recommendations. And, I've yet to get something and think, "he was totally lying. he must have been paid to pimp this garbage"...

Getting into the part about "stupidly expensive gear" and whatnot... It's funny because Joel has worked with Tom Waits. And, I doubt that he went to Tom's bathroom and recorded him on a 4 track... And, I also doubt that Tom gave a shit which piece of gear Joel had "endorsements" for. And, we all know that the song and source is more important than the gear. Should this be automatically tacked onto ANY post discussing gear?!?!

Joel has posted about inexpensive gear that he doesn't have any endorsements for WAAAAAY MORE than any pricey gear that he does. That's why I think that questioning his integrity is bullshit. But, then again, I forgot about the kickback that he gets from every single ebay seller for gear that he mentions on TOMB.
:roll:

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Post by joeysimms » Wed Aug 15, 2007 9:42 am

subatomic pieces wrote: <SNIP>
Getting into the part about "stupidly expensive gear" and whatnot... It's funny because Joel has worked with Tom Waits. And, I doubt that he went to Tom's bathroom and recorded him on a 4 track...
Umm, actually, Tom recorded the song w/ Kathleen in his bathroom on a 4 track. Joel then borrowed a 4 track from a fellow tape-op'r to mix the 4 track recording for Tom.

See, I remember the story, and the post asking if anyone could lend Joel a 4 track.

It's a funny little ironic thing there.

EDIT - I'm self-correcting my post. I beleive Joel sent TW a BoK song to have him sing on, and TW and KB sang over it onto a 4 track.
Last edited by joeysimms on Wed Aug 15, 2007 9:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by mikeyc » Wed Aug 15, 2007 9:48 am

joeysimms wrote:
mikeyc wrote:I wonder what table I'm sitting at. You always think your table is the cool table. Then the cool kids tell you otherwise. Maybe I'll just sit at the Beard and Glasses Table. They look nice...
You're sitting at the table that thinks cool songs have -zero- to do with stupidly expensive gear with silly names. The table that believes Tom Waits records in his bathroom on a 4 track because he likes the way it sounds. The table that thinks it's an insult to beginning recordists everywhere to overemphasize the importance of quality gear over quality of songs (recording is important). The table that thinks accepting $$$ in exchange for free ads is lame-o. The table that thinks if you can't take a joke or a poke, then you're busted and broke in the skull.
No really-- I just have a beard and glasses.

I don't have a problem with it if someone's giving folks free stuff in exchange for press. If someone wants to give me some free gear to say nice things about them, I'm all about it. I'll tell the world that the Behringer UltraVoice sounds better than an Avalon 737 and folds my underwear just how I like them.
I've got bigger things to worry about than whether someone's advertising instead of reviewing. I'm a big boy (I ate my limp veggies-- and a shitload of Peanut Butter Twix). I can decide for myself if a piece of gear is right for me. But I did think the BeeWear bit was funny.

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Post by joeysimms » Wed Aug 15, 2007 9:51 am

I just have glasses, the beard was too much for the Missus.
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Post by chris harris » Wed Aug 15, 2007 9:54 am

jca83 wrote:I have stopped reading both, actually. The magazine still arrives every month
mine only comes every two months.
and I page through it, slightly disappointed at the higher ratio of ads-to-content than previous issues.
how long have you been a subscriber? I'd challenge this. I've been in since about the 10th issue. And, there is certainly more content now than there's ever been. More ads, too...
The mag was supposed to be a rag-tag side project by a bunch of engineers
so, you were there to help draft the mission statement? I thought it was just supposed to be "The Creative Music Recording Magazine"
not an income stream for a bunch of non-journalists.
I'm sure that they're all getting rich from publishing TapeOp. :roll: I bet that if they wanted to, with the circulation they have now, and the advertisers, they could probably sell off TapeOp and make some real money.
And yes, I have purchased the TapeOp book and supported however I can (so don't think I'm not appreciative of their hard work).

As for the forum, well, you can clearly see the issues we have with it, so I won't expound. Just know that I (and others) have moved on. If you'll excuse me, I'm going to stop talking about recording and music so I can actually get some done.
If you guys have so many issues with TapeOp, and would prefer to have a publication that is a "rag-tag side project by a bunch of engineers", then go make one. I'm happy that TapeOp has grown with me. And, I'm also happy that they still have SOME focus on people and technique. Each issue of TapeOp still makes me excited to get in there and do something new and exciting with what I have. But, TapeOp has grown. Larry has grown. I would hope that anyone who has read the magazine for years would have grown, too...

If not, then there is a Kinkos in every city and I'm sure that there are plenty of people out there dying to read regurgitated "4 track recipes"

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Post by chris harris » Wed Aug 15, 2007 9:57 am

joeysimms wrote:
subatomic pieces wrote: <SNIP>
Getting into the part about "stupidly expensive gear" and whatnot... It's funny because Joel has worked with Tom Waits. And, I doubt that he went to Tom's bathroom and recorded him on a 4 track...
Umm, actually, Tom recorded the song w/ Kathleen in his bathroom on a 4 track. Joel then borrowed a 4 track from a fellow tape-op'r to mix the 4 track recording for Tom.

See, I remember the story, and the post asking if anyone could lend Joel a 4 track.

It's a funny little ironic thing there.

EDIT - I'm self-correcting my post. I beleive Joel sent TW a BoK song to have him sing on, and TW and KB sang over it onto a 4 track.

wow! So, Joel was able to get something done on inexpensive gear?!?! hope he didn't lose any endorsements over it.

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Post by coniferouspine » Wed Aug 15, 2007 9:59 am

subatomic pieces wrote:If you've got a legitimate complaint with a TapeOp review, or with a Joel Hamilton post, then fucking say it already.
Thanks for the helpful advice. I did say it and it got deleted by the moderators. But thanks for giving me the advice, anyway.
"Every song needs a cranked marshall for mojo, even if decorum requires muting the track."

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Post by trodden » Wed Aug 15, 2007 10:01 am

someone told me there was going to be vegan cake here, where is the vegan cake... if there is no cake, then there must be some vegan blow... along with vegan strippers... damnit.

i use os9.

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Post by chris harris » Wed Aug 15, 2007 10:03 am

jca83 wrote:
subatomic pieces wrote:If you've got a legitimate complaint with a TapeOp review, or with a Joel Hamilton post, then fucking say it already. If there is something specific in one of the reviews or posts that you think is an outright lie, bought-and-paid-for by a manufacturer, then fucking say it.
I hope this is public enough for you.

It's quite obvious that Joel is posting "reviews" of gear in this forum with the sole intent of being compensated by the manufacturer. It appears (and he has yet to deny) that he has figured out that the faithful readers of this forum have started taking his advice as fact. That is true -- I can't tell you how many times Joel has "outed" a nice piece of gear, only to have it's eBay price skyrocket in the weeks after.
It's public enough for me. Just not specific enough for me.
subatomic pieces wrote:If there is something specific in one of the reviews or posts that you think is an outright lie, bought-and-paid-for by a manufacturer, then fucking say it.
"sole intent of being compensated by the manufacturer"?!?! seriously. prove it. this borders on libel.

and, again, what the fuck do ebay prices have to do with paid endorsements.

The guy is supposed to "deny" that people respect his recordings and his knowledge?!?!

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Post by chris harris » Wed Aug 15, 2007 10:07 am

coniferouspine wrote:
subatomic pieces wrote:If you've got a legitimate complaint with a TapeOp review, or with a Joel Hamilton post, then fucking say it already.
Thanks for the helpful advice. I did say it and it got deleted by the moderators. But thanks for giving me the advice, anyway.
Making vague assertions disguised as jokes, is not a "legitimate complaint". Have the courage to come out from hiding behind your humor and make some specific accusations. Let the man answer to actual charges of impropriety, rather than amature comedian jabs.
subatomic pieces wrote:If there is something specific in one of the reviews or posts that you think is an outright lie, bought-and-paid-for by a manufacturer, then fucking say it.

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Post by coniferouspine » Wed Aug 15, 2007 11:13 am

OK, for your benefit, I will try and avoid any attempt at humor or subtlety or style whatsoever when I post from now on.


I am one of the people who think that threads like this are a little suspect:

http://messageboard.tapeop.com/viewtopi ... 73&start=0

Joel starts a thread RAVING about Pigtronix products. It's like he's literally telling people to run out and buy them all. And lo and behold, whattdayaknow, he's listed here

http://www.pigtronix.com/artist.htm

on their website, about halfway down on the right, under Dave Friedman, as one of their "artists".

So my question, as a TOMB reader would be, is Joel getting some kind of consideration from Pigtronix, is he getting these pedals from them for free or at a discount or what? Because, if he is, if it is ANY kind of endorsement deal, or ANY consideration, then I would have to question why he is creating threads on this message board that are not asking or answering questions but are solely dedicated to raving about these products. And there was another brand new thread he started the other day (I think yesterday?) about some other new Pigtronix product, that got deleted by the moderator(s) the INSTANT that I pointed out in a joke that coincidentally Joel is mentioned there on their artist page and was there a connection. It got deleted sooooo fast, I was like, WOW THAT WAS QUICK. IF the guy is buying every single one of the Pigtronix products out of pocket on his own and then raving about them here, then more power to him. BUT if there is ANY sort of a hookup happening between Joel and Pigtronix, and he is raving about their products here, in a supposedly honest and open forum like TOMB (I may be putting words in their mouth but I think that is what Larry and Hillary would like it to be thought of as), then I think people here on this board SHOULD know about it, so that when they read Joel's rave reviews about whatever product it is, they will know up front that he is a spokesperson receiving compensation from the company, as well as maybe being a fan of whatever product it is. It's great that the dude is passionate about recording and new gear and all, but I also think the guy should be more up front about his relationships with some of these companies and such, especially when he's on here posting some of these unsolicited rave reviews about products out of the blue.

I have no beef with Joel personally, don't even know the guy. Until threads started getting deleted the last day or two I didn't really care, even. To their credit, many (but not all) Tape Op reviewers in the print mag do indicate whether the equipment they review was free, or loaned, or if they got a discount or had to send it back. But Joel Hamilton and threads like those glowing Pigtronix type threads he's responsible for on TOMB? I dunno. That's a whole nother thing if you ask me. Fair or foul? It kinda reminds me of those little highlight things they used to do during football games -- "YOU MAKE THE CALL."

Sorry to be a downer, but you asked me to cut the comedy and "vague assertions," and you immediately rushed to the defense of some of the more obvious murky grey areas of this message board and its parent company's culture, so there you go.
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Post by helmuth » Wed Aug 15, 2007 11:39 am

Amen!

And it's not like it's a coincidence. Sage, Tranzport, whatever.
I'm kinda surprised when he "reviews" a product and you don't find him on their artist page.

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Post by chris harris » Wed Aug 15, 2007 12:48 pm

that's a much better way to make your argument. now, we've gotten away from the wit fest and you're leveling specific charges.

maybe Joel should disclose any paid endorsements in his signature?

that said, I'd argue that this:
http://www.pigtronix.com/artist.htm
"Artists using the Pigtronix Envelope Phaser:"

is far from hard evidence that there's a paid endorsement deal involved.

I don't think that it's unusual for people working in a successful, professional studio to receive free/discounted/prototype gear. The place where I work does. And, we even provide testimonials if we're asked and if we like the gear. There's never a stated or even implied tit-for-tat. What does the manufacturer get? Well, they get to see how their gear performs in real life make-it-or-break-it situations... they get input on improving their gear for future revisions... they get to know that if their gear cuts the mustard, it will be used on high-profile recordings that will bring exposure to their gear. If a manufacturer gives Joel a piece of gear, and he loves it and decides to spread the word, is that unethical? Just like with the TapeOp ad complaints, you guys are assuming a tit-for-tat where there's really no hard evidence or even grounds to suggest such a thing. TapeOp magazine and Joel Hamilton have always been on the level as far as I can tell. And, until I see real proof otherwise, I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt. Sure, there's something to be said about the "appearance of impropriety" and all that... But, they've given me no reason to immediately assume that they're all crooks.

The line of thinking in this thread implies that Joel is a dishonest person. And, it implies that his main motivation for participating in this forum is to promote gear he's being paid to promote. I don't believe either of these things. Joel emphasizes that it's the talent more than the gear as much or more than anyone else posting in this thread.

And, I'm sure that people are pisssed that Joel mentioning a piece of gear here can affect ebay prices. But, I still have no clue what the hell that had to do with this thread. It usually involves used or discontinued gear. Maybe he's conspiring with used gear brokers to inflate prices of things that they have a surplus of?

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Post by dubold » Wed Aug 15, 2007 1:16 pm

subatomic pieces wrote: And, I'm sure that people are pisssed that Joel mentioning a piece of gear here can affect ebay prices. But, I still have no clue what the hell that had to do with this thread. It usually involves used or discontinued gear. Maybe he's conspiring with used gear brokers to inflate prices of things that they have a surplus of?
well, I don't have a horse in this particular race, but i'd say that the ebay thing was mentioned as more of an indicator as to how effective someone's glowing review of gear can be. That is, if people who are respected on this board rave about something, it's not just an opinion - it directly influences a run on the vintage whatever.

I don't think anyone's saying that Joel takes a break from transferring Tom Waits' bathtub 4track tapes and secretly contacts the elves who run ebay in order to drive up the prices of, say, the blackface Radio Shack EQ.

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