The Hubris! Bush must go. Yesterday.

[Mark67]

My point with that remark is that the right's solution isn't working very well, no matter what side of the globe you are on.

Well, we haven't had any more terrorist attacks on our soil yet. The Taliban has been routed, Al Qaeda's camps are busted. A dictator responsible for hundreds of thousands of deaths is gone. A country has a chance at a democratic government--the only in the Middle East besides Israel and Turkey, if you count them. Even Khaddafi was making nice-guy noises our way. Terrorists are much more furtive than ever before when they didn't have to worry about consequences..

I'd say there's been some significant results that are not negative.

I'm all ears to hear someone's alternative plan.

[Mark67]

The same white men from the same elite schools and the same money. It's all the same if you ask me. The good ol' boys.

That's it in a nutshell. I could quote any number of posts on here about all the evil the Bush administration has perpetrated on the US and the world, and probably 95% of it is true. The thing is, how different has it ever been? We've had government after government laying the groundwork and nurturing the rage that prompted the terrorists to attack in the first place. In fact, I think one of the only real differences between Iraq and much of what the US and really, all of the modern West, has done troughout history is that Iraq just didn't go quietly. Most of the places we've put the screws in were just too poor/scared/ill-equipt to do much about it. I think part of the reason the rest of the world is starting to rally against the US is that there are finally people who are fighting back and showing us to not be the untouchable giant we once seemed to be.

I mean, holy shit! The same thing happened right here only 300 years ago.

Tell me, retarma, what are most of these places we've put the screws in that were too scared to do much about it? Where's all the American Empire's American colonies?

It sickens me when I see people sympathize with the noble, American Revolutionary-like Baathist resistance and their foreign jihadi helpers, people who are too bone-fucking stupid to see a difference between the West and the people who, at Saddam's request, made what the U.S. did in Abu Ghraib look like Disneyland EVERY SINGLE DAY, people who murder women in the street should an inch of flesh be visible, people who hack off INNOCENT people's heads, people who kill 3000 INNOCENT people in a skyscraper and fucking dance for joy about it, people who are committing genocide throughout Sudan, people who, lacking courage to fight for their beliefs, recruit INNOCENT kids from the time they are babies to strap bombs to themselves and blow up INNOCENTS in a marketplace. INNOCENTS, not combatants. Not soldiers.

Now tell me again--what, exactly, did WE do to deserve this?

[DUC]

The same white men from the same elite schools and the same money. It's all the same if you ask me. The good ol' boys.

That's it in a nutshell. I could quote any number of posts on here about all the evil the Bush administration has perpetrated on the US and the world, and probably 95% of it is true. The thing is, how different has it ever been? We've had government after government laying the groundwork and nurturing the rage that prompted the terrorists to attack in the first place. In fact, I think one of the only real differences between Iraq and much of what the US and really, all of the modern West, has done troughout history is that Iraq just didn't go quietly. Most of the places we've put the screws in were just too poor/scared/ill-equipt to do much about it. I think part of the reason the rest of the world is starting to rally against the US is that there are finally people who are fighting back and showing us to not be the untouchable giant we once seemed to be.

I mean, holy shit! The same thing happened right here only 300 years ago.

Tell me, retarma, what are most of these places we've put the screws in that were too scared to do much about it? Where's all the American Empire's American colonies?

It sickens me when I see people sympathize with the noble, American Revolutionary-like Baathist resistance and their foreign jihadi helpers, people who are too bone-fucking stupid to see a difference between the West and the people who, at Saddam's request, made what the U.S. did in Abu Ghraib look like Disneyland EVERY SINGLE DAY, people who murder women in the street should an inch of flesh be visible, people who hack off INNOCENT people's heads, people who kill 3000 INNOCENT people in a skyscraper and fucking dance for joy about it, people who are committing genocide throughout Sudan, people who, lacking courage to fight for their beliefs, recruit INNOCENT kids from the time they are babies to strap bombs to themselves and blow up INNOCENTS in a marketplace. INNOCENTS, not combatants. Not soldiers.

Now tell me again--what, exactly, did WE do to deserve this?

We are being played by the powers that be. Don't buy into it so easily. Abu Ghraib is just the tip of the ice-berg. 3000 people killed in NY, there's just too many questions. Genocide in Sudan is abortion here, if you want to nitpick. We don't strap bombs on ourselves to blow people up. We recruit poor minorities and rednecks to drop bombs on people we've never seen. Come on. This whole world is fucked up. Don't play like we're righteous here. Please! I don't buy into liberal bullshit either.

[bejeeber]

Terrorists are much more furtive than ever before when they didn't have to worry about consequences..

That's a snappy but completely erroneous extreme right wing spin/misinformation attempt. The opposite is actually true:

from ABC news online:

Terrorism up, not down: US
'Secretary of State Colin Powell has acknowledged that poor data in a terrorism report allowed an erroneous conclusion that terrorist acts had decreased worldwide, but insisted the foul-up was unintentional. '
http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/20 ... 130314.htm

from MSNBC:

'This CIA insider calls the U.S. war in Iraq a dream come true for Osama bin Laden, saying, ?Bin Laden saw the invasion of Iraq as a Christmas gift he never thought he?d get.? By invading a country that?s regarded as the second holiest place in Islam, he asserts, the Bush administration inadvertently validated bin Laden?s assertions that the United States intends a holy war against Muslims.'
http://msnbc.msn.com/id/5279743

[Mark67]

We are being played by the powers that be. Don't buy into it so easily. Abu Ghraib is just the tip of the ice-berg. 3000 people killed in NY, there's just too many questions. Genocide in Sudan is abortion here, if you want to nitpick. We don't strap bombs on ourselves to blow people up. We recruit poor minorities and rednecks to drop bombs on people we've never seen. Come on. This whole world is fucked up. Don't play like we're righteous here. Please! I don't buy into liberal bullshit either.

Dude, I appreciate your point of view, but why are the people of color "poor minorities" and the whites "rednecks?" Aren't you stereotyping just a bit? Not to mention, there are a LOT of middle class kids in the military, and they get shot at too. You do realize it's an all-volunteer army?

I am not playing like we're righteous, I am the last thing from jingoistic, and I'm interested in the truth--but I don't buy the equivocation, is all I'm saying. And raping girls and hacking their families apart-genocide is a BIT different from destroying unborn fetuses--though I'm willing to cede your point on "death count."

and bejeeber it's a totally legit point about the Iraq War increasing terrorism statistically, but all sources "right wing" and otherwise admit it will be worse before it gets better.

Again, it's a legit point--but WHAT WOULD YOU DO OTHERWISE?

[trodden]

Again, it's a legit point--but WHAT WOULD YOU DO OTHERWISE?

I don't think anyone here is saying they have a better idea. And I don't think anyone here thinks they have knowledge, political know how, and resources to access the situation. However, we do have the benefit to disagree with the way we and other people in this world are being pushed around by the political powers of this country. Be it liberal or conservative. Bush is twit, i find it completely obvious. Yes there are horrible acts happening all over this world. But for that to shadow or make us turn a blind eye to what horrible acts our own government is doing is absurd.

[joeysimms]

Again, it's a legit point--but WHAT WOULD YOU DO OTHERWISE?

Tough call. Since the united states installed saddam in the first place, and continued to do business with him with full knowledge of the atrocities he was committing against the kurds, where do we begin? It's this whole idea that the world's resources are there for OUR exploitation, regardless of the human cost, that is more than a little tragic. It also makes it very difficult to cry wolf, when you're out there acting like a terrorist wherever it suits your interests. People get sort of righteously mad after a while. But that oil is ours, tought titty for all those who happen to be living in the wrong place.

[TrumpsHair]

And don't foget Osama was once our man in Afghanistan.

[Mark67]

Again, it's a legit point--but WHAT WOULD YOU DO OTHERWISE?

Tough call. Since the united states installed saddam in the first place, and continued to do business with him with full knowledge of the atrocities he was committing against the kurds, where do we begin? It's this whole idea that the world's resources are there for OUR exploitation, regardless of the human cost, that is more than a little tragic. It also makes it very difficult to cry wolf, when you're out there acting like a terrorist wherever it suits your interests. People get sort of righteously mad after a while. But that oil is ours, tought titty for all those who happen to be living in the wrong place.

This is the kind of thing that drives me nuts. We did NOT "install" Saddam Hussein. He installed himself. Yes we gave him weapons to fight Iran, the country that took our hostages, because that particular movement looked poised to control the entire region. Our weapons sales to Iraq pale in comparison to those from Russia, China, and France--the latter of whom is responsible for Iraq's failed nuclear program. We shook hands with Saddam. We did not get into bed with him.

Most of our oil does not come from the Middle East, so to imagine we started this war for oil is ridiculous, when we could have much more easily invaded Canada and stolen some cool bands from them in addition to their oil. Do you imagine we are "stealing oil" from these countries, and do you really think that's what pisses them off? You're worried about the human cost of oil--what about the human cost of fundamentalist Islam?

[Mark67]

And don't foget Osama was once our man in Afghanistan.

And why do you think that was?

[mtw]

Again, it's a legit point--but WHAT WOULD YOU DO OTHERWISE?

I don't pretend to know the intracacies of the issues in the Middle East. I do know this though: a leader leads by example. What George Bush's leadership has shown me is that he believes that might makes right and that waging war is the way to deal with problems. If we are trying to set an example of democracy, freedom, peace, and prosperity for the rest of the world how does waging war further that goal?

I find it funny that the conservative right is talking about the "plight of the Iraqi people" and how we should have compassion for them. Before 9/11 there wasn't a conservative around that would give a squirt of piss for anyone in the middle east. If you follow Bush's logic to its conclusion we should be invading Iran, Saudi Arabia, N. Korea, Myanmar, and China. The Chinese government says to Hong Kong "Sorry guys, no democracy for you!" and the US Government turns a blind eye. China says to Taiwan "Sorry guys, no democracy for you either!" and we just shrug. I mean here is a country that is ACTIVELY STIFLING democracy and we aren't doing anything about it! I'm sorry but I just don't believe that Bush's heart bleeds for the citizens of Iraq.

[ottokbre]

Mark67 needs to read more and watch less.

[TrumpsHair]

Hey Mark67. Answer me this. If there was no oil there, would we still have gone? Think deeply before you reply. Bush and Cheney could give a rats ass about the people of Iraq. You've shown yourself to be a neo-con.

[Randy]

Randy, you say this like it's some great revelation to me. I am an urban kid. I grew up around all kinds, and I have yet to meet a Muslim who wasn't an accomplished, thoughtful human being (though a few had some pretty scary conspiracy theories involving the ol' Jewish world domination bit). My guess is you are young, idealistic, and adopt the "why can't we all get along" philosophy. That's sweet, but it is you who does not get the point.

Perhaps if you educated yourself, you would realize there is a great deal of difference between the Muslim who opts for the freedom this country offers and the laws that secure this freedom, and those who choose to live under Sharia (Koranic Law). Yeah, once upon a time Christians were bad bad people--then we had a Reformation, an Enlightenment, which compartmentalized religion and separated Church and State and brought about the uplifting and freedom of people everywhere (simplistic--there were other factors too). It has been a long time since people were slaughtered in the name of Christ (and Hitler was not a Christian). People are being slaughtered in the name of Allah even as you read this. Get the diff?

Take Iran--a nation that still looks quite modern and up until the Ayotollah took over would have stepped up from third world status. Many Iranians--educated, worldly people--loathe, seethe with anger over the oppression the Mullahs have brought. If you cared about these people, or any of the Muslim people of the world you would admit that we ALL need to stand up and fight Islamicism.

I'm not saying the U.S. doesn't have a history of foreign policy mistakes (including the Shah in Iran). But we aren't doing anyone any favors by looking the other way, or by trying to understand "why did they fly those planes into our buildings? Why did they blow up those trains? What did we do wrong?" Guess what? They were doing that stufff before Iraq, and they'll be doing it after we get out of Iraq.

Actually, I am 39 and sort of on this side of dissillusioned. The crap that is going down in the middle east and Iraq etc. is really the result of our country meddling in an oil-rich area to keep it politically unstable so we can profit from it. Divide and conquer. This is not "why can't we all get along" it is "why do we have to keep fucking these poor innocent people up the ass with a red hot poker." The "fundamentalist muslims" are not indicative of the real muslim faith anymore than David Koresh was indicative of the christian faith. It just so happens that they are gaining followers because they are just about the only group doing anything to oppose western oppression in the area.

Do not think for a minute that I feel they are justified.