Re: English as a Major...

[joeysimms]

Yeah, I'm a little bit in agreement with Rob on this one. I have a BFA in Creative Writing, Lit. and Publishing. I think i went to the only school you can actually get a BFA in writing (as opposed to a BA in English with a concentration in c. writing). Whatever. Point is, I took a lot of creative writing classes and seminars where there were several people who just wrote and obviously did not read much. Fantasy garbage, adolescent horror, self absorbed litanies, didactic tirades. Usually, their egos made up for their lack of exposure to literature. I'm not saying I was superior or anything like that...It's just that it was obvious who actually read. It would have done them a great service. I guess the same point applies to music as well. The more you seek out good music, the more rounded out and meaningful your own music will be, IMO.

Of course it would do them some service to have read more, but why worry? If it sucks it sucks. There are plenty of learned writers spewing fantasy garbage (isaac asimov. sorry.), adolescent horror (stephen king), Yself-absorbed litanies (norman mailer), didactic tirades (me!)..

You cannot make the same argument for music, can you? That one must know how to read music, understand theory and chord structure, and have a thorough understanding of music history, before picking up a guitar?

[bobbydj]

Yeah, I'm a little bit in agreement with Rob on this one. I have a BFA in Creative Writing, Lit. and Publishing. I think i went to the only school you can actually get a BFA in writing (as opposed to a BA in English with a concentration in c. writing). Whatever. Point is, I took a lot of creative writing classes and seminars where there were several people who just wrote and obviously did not read much. Fantasy garbage, adolescent horror, self absorbed litanies, didactic tirades. Usually, their egos made up for their lack of exposure to literature. I'm not saying I was superior or anything like that...It's just that it was obvious who actually read. It would have done them a great service. I guess the same point applies to music as well. The more you seek out good music, the more rounded out and meaningful your own music will be, IMO.

Of course it would do them some service to have read more, but why worry? If it sucks it sucks. There are plenty of learned writers spewing fantasy garbage (isaac asimov. sorry.), adolescent horror (stephen king), Yself-absorbed litanies (norman mailer), didactic tirades (me!)..

You cannot make the same argument for music, can you? That one must know how to read music, understand theory and chord structure, and have a thorough understanding of music history, before picking up a guitar?

Last point first. Of course!! I took the loom to mean y'know. Listening as widely as possible. Maybe before picking up the guitar - but definitely during. Ok, ok - there're exceptions. Maybe purity of vision and total single-mindedness come from not listening to other people's stuff. But shit. There seem to've been a whole shitload of records in the last few years where I've been thinking "fuck, do NOT record anything else before listening seriously to X, Y, and Z." Because I'm kind of sick of this whole reinventing the wheel thing. And this from someone who is not averse to Interpol, The Strokes and Franz Ferdinand.

Wait. I see the problem with what I've just said. Surely the problem with those examples is that they HAVE listened to other stuff. They'd've been more original had they just picked up a guitar and played something anything, probably. Well yeah. But then maybe if they'd listened to a shit load more stuff - more DIFFERENT stuff - we'd have different, more original propositions on our hands (?).

But I for one wasn't advocating having to master the gravitas of allegory and what? Metaphor. I dunno. Whatever the literary equivalent of learnign to play Beethoven on the piano would be. I just meant put some serious groundwork in prior to picking up the pen - with the added caveat of authorial experience and background. If that experience and b/ground isn't there, then fuck. The structure, characterisation and plot better be bloody good because y'know. I don't need any more Jeffrey fucking Archers in the world.

[joeysimms]

Last point first. Of course!! I took the loom to mean y'know. Listening as widely as possible. Maybe before picking up the guitar - but definitely during. Ok, ok - there're exceptions. Maybe purity of vision and total single-mindedness come from not listening to other people's stuff. But shit. There seem to've been a whole shitload of records in the last few years where I've been thinking "fuck, do NOT record anything else before listening seriously to X, Y, and Z." Because I'm kind of sick of this whole reinventing the wheel thing. And this from someone who is not averse to Interpol, The Strokes and Franz Ferdinand.

Well, it's important to me to have listened widely, and i have, but i can't worry about what other bands do. It's not my problem if they're too worried about their coolness to stray too far from the velvet underground, even tho the VU wouldn't have existed if THEY hadn't strayed..

Wait. I see the problem with what I've just said. Surely the problem with those examples is that they HAVE listened to other stuff. They'd've been more original had they just picked up a guitar and played something anything, probably. Well yeah. But then maybe if they'd listened to a shit load more stuff - more DIFFERENT stuff - we'd have different, more original propositions on our hands (?).

Probably. I'm not saying don't learn to play, or don't listen to others, but I am saying that I'm glad there are people like jad fair around to keep a bit of perspective on how much you need to "know" before making records.

But I for one wasn't advocating having to master the gravitas of allegory and what? Metaphor. I dunno. Whatever the literary equivalent of learnign to play Beethoven on the piano would be. I just meant put some serious groundwork in prior to picking up the pen - with the added caveat of authorial experience and background. If that experience and b/ground isn't there, then fuck. The structure, characterisation and plot better be bloody good because y'know. I don't need any more Jeffrey fucking Archers in the world.

Again, why harsh on the jeffrey archers of the world. people like that stuff, there's nothing you can do about it, and even so, there's plenty of people with authorial experience, firm grasp of plot, structure, and characterization, and they suck eggs. sometimes the back of the cereal box is written better.

Proper schooling is a funny subject to me. I have none, in the sense that I sat in a class and racked up student loans. BUT, I have played in a band with a master drummer from senegal, taken out loads of material from any available library, and generally conducted all of my artistic endeavors as my own personal "class"..

It used to annoy the shit out of me when the drummer in my last band would show up late for practice, and then complain and moan about how she couldn't practice her parts because she has a test tomorrow, etc.. and meanwhile I'm thinking "well, the BAND has a test on friday, and you're gonna make us fucking flunk it if you don't practice.."

Ya know?

[craigloom]

I know what you mean, my friend. I mean, for crying out loud, I'm as unschooled as you get as far as music theory and technic (and the english language -- isn't it obvious?). But, like bobert said, I wasn't talking about technic, just the art and the ideas that come before you because chances are, the ideas you come up with when your a dough-eyed 20-year-old has been done countless times and adds to the tireless cliche epidemic. That's all fine and good if that becomes a personal learning experience, but when your in a costly class, you gotta respect the time and effort of the others.

[joeysimms]

"... just the art and the ideas that come before you because chances are, the ideas you come up with when your a dough-eyed 20-year-old has been done countless times and adds to the tireless cliche epidemic... "

I dunno.. I understand the jist of what you're saying, but i hear countless examples of the opposite happening: dude wants to play music, listens to bad metal, writes bad metal cliches. everyone is surely a product of their influences, even the dough-eyed 20 year old has heard music as a kid.

There's an innocence that is all but lost once you "know" how to play. The keyboard player in my last band used to come up with some wonderful parts, and she was an absolute beginner. She always felt a bit inadequate, but to my ears, her contribution was invaluable. There's NO WAY i would've come up with some of her parts, cuz my brain would mutter 'wrong' before my hands would even do it.

[wing]

well i do agree with the idea that the absorption of existing art aids in making our own art. it's how we're influenced and it's definitely how i've always learned.

though i don't know how you guys got off on this tangent anyway-- it's not like i ever said i only want to write and not read! i just prefer more writing to reading, but it doesn't mean i don't love to read.

does anybody else have anything on-topic, as far as how english programs work regarding a literature concentration v. creative writing... and perhaps how english may apply to other arts?

thanks!

[joeysimms]

Jon, you're asking for 'on-topic' in the 'off-topic' forum.. tsk tsk..

[wing]

Jon, you're asking for 'on-topic' in the 'off-topic' forum.. tsk tsk..

i know, i'm such a prickface.

[saultime]

Yep. I think people who pick up a pen before reading (i.e. studying, understanding, constructively criticising) some serious, heavy shit should have their teeth pulled out with a pair of Victorian pliers. Ok, ok - too harsh. Edwardian pliers. There's just too many BS books in this world that seem to betray the shallowness of thought of the author. Get down and dirty with the archives. That's my bloody maxim.

I'm with you, bobby.

Maybe the reason we?re having a problem making an analogy with music is because we?re comparing a popular art form with something that is more obscure.

I mean, everyone listens to music, but few people regularly read what we would call ?literature.?

Perhaps a more accurate analogy would involve a musician who only listens to very recent top 40 radio. If you have ever read an interview with the Justin Timberlake or Christina Aguilera, they list their influences as Michael Jackson or Whiney Houston, and it pretty much stops there. If they dare reference someone even as obscure as Stevie Wonder, well, that?s considered edgy.

We all know people who have hundreds of CDs, but have no knowledge whatsoever of any music outside of James Taylor, Jimmy Buffett and the Eagles. Consider the kind of music these people make.

NOW, to speak a little more OT, I think majoring in English is a great idea. I have several friends who majored in English, and they?re all very smart people. I don?t think that?s a coincidence. Tool around in the program for a couple semesters and find out which area you want to concentrate in. You don?t have to have your mind made up before you even begin.

[joeysimms]

I'm with you, bobby.

Maybe the reason we?re having a problem making an analogy with music is because we?re comparing a popular art form with something that is more obscure.

I mean, everyone listens to music, but few people regularly read what we would call ?literature.?

That's elitist. The greatest of all literature only boils down to certain character archetypes, and those archetypes can be found in Bugs Bunny, a Joan Collins paperback, Dostoyevsky, a bubble gum wrapper..

Perhaps a more accurate analogy would involve a musician who only listens to very recent top 40 radio. If you have ever read an interview with the Justin Timberlake or Christina Aguilera, they list their influences as Michael Jackson or Whiney Houston, and it pretty much stops there. If they dare reference someone even as obscure as Stevie Wonder, well, that?s considered edgy.

Replace Justin and Christina with the dudes from Strokes and Franz fernidand, and they'll list an eqally narrow musical path. What's the diff?

We all know people who have hundreds of CDs, but have no knowledge whatsoever of any music outside of James Taylor, Jimmy Buffett and the Eagles. Consider the kind of music these people make.

I've never met anyone with hundreds of cd's and all of it be stuff like JT, JB, and the Eagles.

NOW, to speak a little more OT, I think majoring in English is a great idea. I have several friends who majored in English, and they?re all very smart people. I don?t think that?s a coincidence. Tool around in the program for a couple semesters and find out which area you want to concentrate in. You don?t have to have your mind made up before you even begin.

This is great advice.. You can switch majors at just about any point, so don't worry so much about it.

[saultime]

That's elitist. The greatest of all literature only boils down to certain character archetypes, and those archetypes can be found in Bugs Bunny, a Joan Collins paperback, Dostoyevsky, a bubble gum wrapper.

You could call me an elitist, but I don?t think I?ve given you a reason yet. Chuck Jones, Dostoyevsky and Joan Collins may each be totally brilliant in their own way. They may share similarities. But they don?t each share the same goals with their work, and they?re not trying to do the same thing.

I honestly try not to get into the whole ?high art / low art? thing. I try to judge art on its own terms. Here?s what I mean: I fucking love, LOVE AC\DC. I think ?High Voltage? is a great record. Is ?Pet Sounds? a better record?

I honestly don?t care. One is a teenage symphony to god, the other is all about fucking. They?re not trying to do the same thing. But they?re both terrific successes.

Replace Justin and Christina with the dudes from Strokes and Franz fernidand, and they'll list an eqally narrow musical path. What's the diff?

I?m not sure that there is one, and that?s why I?m not into the Stokes. They?re a little too derivative for me. That?s not a rule I live by though?at some point personal tastes take over. The Replacements are certainly very derivative of Big Star, but that doesn?t stop me from being an out of control Westerberg fan.

Also, I?m not speaking so much against narrow influences as I am against people who limit themselves to obvious, ?track 1, side 1? influences. People who really love music (or literature) tend to dig around.

I've never met anyone with hundreds of cd's and all of it be stuff like JT, JB, and the Eagles.

Maybe that?s because you don?t hang out with the same douche bags I have known over the years. I don?t mean thousands of CDs, but I know lots of people with a couple hundred disks that are all?what do we call it?...Crap. Toby Keith, Garth Brooks, Faith Hill, 50 Cent, and every single ?Now that?s what I call music? collection. For most people, music just starts and ends with top 40 radio.

I know a dozen people who probably think the Eagles are the greatest band ever, but have never heard of Graham Parsons, and don't want to hear about Graham Parsons.

[joeysimms]

I honestly try not to get into the whole ?high art / low art? thing. I try to judge art on its own terms. Here?s what I mean: I fucking love, LOVE AC\DC. I think ?High Voltage? is a great record. Is ?Pet Sounds? a better record?

That's cool, same here..

Also, I?m not speaking so much against narrow influences as I am against people who limit themselves to obvious, ?track 1, side 1? influences. People who really love music (or literature) tend to dig around.

Of course, but why bother getting worked up over it..

I've never met anyone with hundreds of cd's and all of it be stuff like JT, JB, and the Eagles.

Maybe that?s because you don?t hang out with the same douche bags I have known over the years. I don?t mean thousands of CDs, but I know lots of people with a couple hundred disks that are all?what do we call it?...Crap. Toby Keith, Garth Brooks, Faith Hill, 50 Cent, and every single ?Now that?s what I call music? collection. For most people, music just starts and ends with top 40 radio.

I know a few as well, but even if you think their taste is "off" doesn't mean they're somehow not worth your time.

I know a dozen people who probably think the Eagles are the greatest band ever, but have never heard of Graham Parsons, and don't want to hear about Graham Parsons.

It's always been that way, and it will always be that way. Thing is, people feel put-upon when you try to educate them ala "how can you listen to the eagles when they are just a milquetoast 3rd rate version of graham parsons, who was just a 2nd rate merle haggard, who was just a 2nd rate.."

There IS no accounting for taste in music, art or literature. Good thing, too.

[Brian Brock]

I have a double major in philosophy and history of science, a double minor in mathematics and music, with a damn lot of literature thrown in there (I went to St. John's College in Santa Fe, NM, a great books / seminar discussion based school with no electives. great place).

So, basically, the ultimate totally useless college education, in which class I would also put English majors, unless you're interesting in being a professor of English, which you apparently aren't. Although if you like school so much, you may end up wanting to help other people be in school so that you can stay in it for longer.

The advantages:
--1) my songs have lots of interesting influences
--2) I can figure damn well anything out (eg recording)
--3) my wife, who is the greatest person in the world, also went there
--4) I don't have a career

The disadvantages:
--1) In the middle of my life's journey, I awake on a dark path in the woods.
--2) Given that I wasn't in a really goal-oriented college situation, when I felt like doing other things (playing guitar) there was no reason to return to my studies.
--3) I probably should have just focused on music, since that's what I love.

Overall, I'm glad that I did it. If you don't have a really specific thing that you want to do, then doing something generally applicable is clearly a good plan - just be prepared to drop it when specific paths open up.

[bobbydj]

I really owe this discussion a careful reply. But due to time constraints and other factors I will simply have to conclude that I'm right.

[Fieryjack]

Brian, a couple of things:

So, basically, the ultimate totally useless college education, in which class I would also put English majors, unless you're interesting in being a professor of English, which you apparently aren't.

This is one hell of a fragmented sentence. In fact it isn't even a sentence. Some English might do you good, son!

my wife, who is the greatest person in the world

MY wife is the greatest person in the world!