A rather unfortunate experience

[ubertar]

I don't have a lot of sympathy for the Taliban, either.

I can understand that they're afraid of changes in society brought about by the expansion of civil rights and a scientific understanding of the world. I can see how this might threaten their world view. I'm sure they sincerely believe the things they do are good and right, but that doesn't make it so.

[Mr PC]

I just think that your ever-so-easy equation of the religious right and the Taliban demonstrates ignorance on your part. You are the ignorant one. I'm sure it feels neat to throw around epithets like "taliban", but it is just a way to shut off thought in the conversation.

PC

[ubertar]

I'm not equating them-- but there are a lot of parallels. I'm not trying to shut off thought, but open it up-- apparently in a direction you're not comfortable going in. I've spent a lot of time having conversations with fundies online, trying to figure out where they're coming from, and I've found that most of those I've dealt with have had their heads firmly buried in the sand. These people aren't stupid (well, some of them are-- a certain % of any group will be stupid) but most are willfully ignorant. They want a theocracy in the US, with Christian prayer in schools, no teaching of evolution, the 10 commandments in courtrooms, no real sex ed, no legal abortion, no contraception, no gay rights... and if you gave them that, do you think they'd stop there? Next thing you know, there'll be a new Inquisition, and chastity belts for all. Welcome to the new Dark Ages.

Maybe you think I'm being histrionic. That I'm exaggerating. Shit, no. These are some scary, irrational mofos. If you argue a point well, and they don't have an answer for you, your eloquence must have been inspired by Satan. There's no getting through to these people.

[Mr PC]

Well, you've met some real dandies! My comment about shutting off thought refers to the tendency of people to put neat handles on people or arguments they don't like and leave it there, as if the epithet solves the issue. If that doesn't apply to you, then you have my apologies. There are nutbags in every group.

I follow things more closely than average and think I understand Bush pretty well. I think if he had everything entirely his way there would still be evolution taught in school, and all religions would be treated with respect and all people with tolerance and acceptance (people of good will). He is deeply rooted in his faith, but is not at all intolerant himself.

PC

[helstab]

Well, you've met some real dandies! My comment about shutting off thought refers to the tendency of people to put neat handles on people or arguments they don't like and leave it there, as if the epithet solves the issue. If that doesn't apply to you, then you have my apologies. There are nutbags in every group.

I follow things more closely than average and think I understand Bush pretty well. I think if he had everything entirely his way there would still be evolution taught in school, and all religions would be treated with respect and all people with tolerance and acceptance (people of good will). He is deeply rooted in his faith, but is not at all intolerant himself.

PC

fuck you douche bag!

[helstab]

just kidding.

[Mr PC]

[ubertar]

I don't think it's possible to understand Bush or any other politician that well. They all talk out of both sides of their mouth so much you can interpret what they say however you like. That way, you can say to yourself, "ah, he said that, but I know he means this" which is exactly how they want you to react. That way they can be all things to all people-- or at least as many people as they can. Was Clinton a centrist or a liberal? It's easier to look back at his time in office and decide based on what he did, but at the time he often did things to please one group, while winking at another. Bush does the same thing, only with different groups. They all do that. If you think you really know who he is and how he thinks, either you know him very well personally, or he's got you just where he wants you-- he makes himself vague enough that you can project what you want him to be on to him, and believe that's the real thing. To be fair, it's possible to interpret everything he says and does in the most negative possible light, and some do that. I'd say their assessment has tended to be more accurate.

[Mr. Dipity]

I just think that your ever-so-easy equation of the religious right and the Taliban demonstrates ignorance on your part. You are the ignorant one. I'm sure it feels neat to throw around epithets like "taliban", but it is just a way to shut off thought in the conversation.

PC

You're damn right it's easy.

Just because the environment that each operates in is different,doesn't mean that their hearts aren't in the same place.

Of course, that's just probably just me showing the ignorance of having grown up in the middle east, and seen something of the world outside of my little shed, showing. Right, Mr. PC?

[Mr PC]

OK-

Ubertar- I see where you are coming from. I don't really think I see deep into the soul of W, but I think he is an open-hearted fellow. As to his policies, to each his own. I generally am behind him.


Sserendipity- I don't mean for a second to imply that people who disagree with me are ignorant. I just mean that labeling large swaths of people is sloppy and wrong. I do believe that people of greatly varying viewpoints can all have their hearts in the right place.

Motown is good. I have a few in me-

PC

[wenzel.hellgren]

I just mean that labeling large swaths of people is sloppy and wrong.

Your mom was sloppy and wrong after I labeled her large swath last night.

[Mr PC]

I just mean that labeling large swaths of people is sloppy and wrong.

Your mom was sloppy and wrong after I labeled her large swath last night.

My mom died of cancer in July, fuckface. Hope you're happy--

















just kidding

[ubertar]

I do believe that people of greatly varying viewpoints can all have their hearts in the right place.

Like I said, I'm sure these people think they're doing what's good and right. The problem is willful ignorance. If you've closed yourself off from rational argument (which dogma necessitates) and are operating on false information because you're not interested in the facts, the results will be bad. I'd be willing to bet that the vast majority of people involved in a mass movement that we would agree is clearly reprehensible-- segregation, slavery, nazism, stalinism and so on-- believe at the time what they are doing is good and right. It doesn't matter if their hearts are in the right place if their heads are up their asses. Especially if they deliberately put them there.

[wenzel.hellgren]

I just mean that labeling large swaths of people is sloppy and wrong.

Your mom was sloppy and wrong after I labeled her large swath last night.

My mom died of cancer in July, fuckface. Hope you're happy--

















just kidding

[Mr PC]

Yeah, but if they deliberately put their heads up their arses, then how could their heads be in the right place? (that is, assuming 'up their asses' is not the right place in question...)

Are people lying to themselves? Are they just ignorant? There is a certain amount of dissonance in all of our beliefs. Perhaps some more than others.

I like pizza


PC

Sorry, I meant hearts in the right place--