Who records drums without compression?

[joel hamilton]

I hardly ever try for some retarded idea of "perfect" and always go for "appropriate for the song/form/artist/context."

That being said,

I agree with Chris about compression and its evil side. The dark side can be enticing, though.

I would like to think that I keep one leg on either side of the fence on this one, and IF you do use some compression to tape, know how to use it.

Compression is getting the bad rap that reverb got in the 80's. Mis use, and abuse is not a valid example to base a revolt aginst something.

I truly believe that too many people have watched a person hammer a nail into a wall with a cordless screwdriver, then turned around and proclaimed "cordless screwdrivers suck!"

I have also had lengthy conversations with "purists" that love the sound of the drums on a record like the Meters and there is A TON of compression on those early records. One or two mics, COMPRESSED to the gills!

Like I said, I DO agree with chris and he did gove a compelling, and very true and well worded example of why things dont automatically get better when you use compressors.

Now here is the ON topic part of my rant:

"who records drums without compression?"

A: Chris does I guess.

[cgarges]

Now here is the ON topic part of my rant:

"who records drums without compression?"

A: Chris does I guess.

HA HA! Touche!

Joel, I've been thinking a lot lately about your frequent suggestions on the misuse of gear. You're SO right-on about this. I just tend to get worked up to try to avoid the abuse of said technologies and tend to push the issue where I can. If you have ever heard any of my work, you've heard compression on the drums more often than not, sure. But I can't tell you how many times I've gone to a "studio" (often in someone's house) where they've got all this stuff patched in before they even listen to a source. On the other end of the spectrum (and ironically, the same) I'm getting just entirely sick of hearing records coming out of Nashville that have compression and autotune on every track, whether it needs it or not.

Sorry for ranting.

Rock on, guys.

Chris

[inverseroom]

Well, I liked Chris's diversion, and it is relevant to the topic. I was rereading the TapeOp book the other night, looking for some ideas, when I read the interview with Steve Malkmus, and he was saying that his vocals were all out of tune on "Brighten the Corners," and how Nigel Goodrich made him do a lot of takes on "Terror Twilight" and so his vocals are much better there. I went back and listened to "BTC" and he's right--he's way off pitch. But he's way ON something else that he wasn't on "TT"--he sounds like a human in a room, having emotions and committing them to tape! The former album is much better than the latter--it's skillful without being smooth. (Nothing against Goodrich, who seems to give Radiohead exactly what they need.)

I know there's a difference between having rough edges and sucking. It's related to the difference between knowing when to stop tweaking, and being too lazy to try again. I think the key is to do what you must to keep the listener focused on the emotional, melodic, energetic content of the song; and if that content is enhanced by judicious use of compression or any other effect, then you should do it, and if it isn't, you shouldn't.

Which brings you right back to experience, and being able to judge what is good about your music (or your client's), and knowing what it needs and doesn't need. Which (I'm discovering) you can't get off a message board, you can only get by repeatedly fucking up!

[cgarges]

I know there's a difference between having rough edges and sucking. It's related to the difference between knowing when to stop tweaking, and being too lazy to try again...

Which brings you right back to experience, and being able to judge what is good about your music (or your client's), and knowing what it needs and doesn't need. Which (I'm discovering) you can't get off a message board, you can only get by repeatedly fucking up!

Wow.

It might be time for another TapeOp book of just bits of wisdom from the Message Board. Ironic, considering the last statement, too, huh?

It's stuff like this that makes me stay on here all the time.

Chris

[coniferouspine]

People often talk about how much "character" older bands and recordings had. There was a great newspaper article (I think in the Boston Globe) when John Entwhistle died about how no one can really name specific band members anymore. I mean, how many people know who John, Paul, George, and Ringo are? How about Robert, Jimmy, John Paul, and John? How about Sting, Stewart, and Andy? Okay, try this one: Hell, I can't even think of a good example! Name some Clear Channel wonder band that your mother could identify by the members' first names. How many of you know the name of the original bassist for Creed? I sure as hell don't, but I can name a good list of people who were members of but never even commercially recorded with the Beatles and the Police.

I have been pontificating this same exact argument with friends over pitchers of beer for like the last ten years! Particularly in relation to drummers, Bonzo, Moon, Ringo, Ginger Baker, etc. -- even, ahem, Floyd Sneed! Not that everyone needs to be a '60s legend or this raging mad virtuoso, Vince Ely from the Psychedelic Furs was/is a real distinctive drummer, but it seems like there is a shortage of individual musicians who are unique in their sound, instantly recognizable, folks who show up and rock the house like only *they* can, especially in the drums department in Clear Channel land. It's great to see someone else make this same point and realize I am not alone in thinking this. You are on fire, man! Rave on!

[jc]

i use dynamic efx as default when tracking the kit, but not for any sillyness or 'phattening'. i print the sounds to tape always. expanders on toms help me control cymbal bleed, thats handy. a ducker on the batter side kick helps me control snare bleed on the kck track. i compress the OH to keep excess snare out of the OH when i'm also close miking. 'subtractive dynamic efx'? i dunno.
when it comes time to make things sound awesome, break out the slapback!

[cgarges]

You are on fire, man! Rave on!

Well, in that case...

Just kidding.

God, I hate ProTools for it, though. Even though I should be hating the people abusing ProTools instead.

Chris

[Bear]

I know there's a difference between having rough edges and sucking. It's related to the difference between knowing when to stop tweaking, and being too lazy to try again. I think the key is to do what you must to keep the listener focused on the emotional, melodic, energetic content of the song; and if that content is enhanced by judicious use of compression or any other effect, then you should do it, and if it isn't, you shouldn't.

This is a point I've made often. There is a fine line between spot-on and boring. Sometimes I hear something so re-tracked to perfection that it becomes ... clinical. Like a medical procedure instead of an artistic statement. It's a large part of why I'm not into using all these new plug-ins to make everything "correct." Sometimes it's nice when the vocals swing off pitch. Sometimes it's great when the drummer sounds like he's actually playing the set, and because he's human, there are imperfections. Otherwise, it just sounds like a computer doing a cover song. And I'm not saying that these tools should not exist, because they can come in handy from time to time (like, for example, when a singer does a fantastic take, but hits one really really bad note ... you'll actually be saving the feeling by correcting that one little mishap). But when they become a standard, it feels like we're missing the big picture.

And to stay on topic, I view compression as an effect, not a necessity. If it fits the sound I'm aiming for, I will use it. But only then. I've found that abusing it hurts me more than under-using it. But that might just be me.

[mjau]

Hearing the inconsistencies is what makes music sound human, and too much of the crap hitting the airwaves today sounds forumulaic because, surprise, it is. As long as the actual tracking is judicious (i.e., nicely tuned drums, good mic technique, decent room), then a lack of compression would be the last of my concerns. And on a mix? Well, there's an easy cure for an undercomped mix - the volume knob. There's no easy mix for an overcomped mix, aside from changing the station.

[dokushoka]

The goal with mixing, most of the time now, is to make the band sound larger than life. Listen to something like Revlolver though, and it just sound like 4 guys in a room. The Beatles had no real competition, so they didn't have to sound huge. Think about that for a moment...

[joel hamilton]

My favorite quote (about tracking):

"that vocal was PERFECT! Now lets get a good one...."

I have used that many times.

The decision whether or not to compress drums to tape, or at all is ALWAYS determined by the drummers performance. There are times where none is needed, and there are times where it sounds great even if it is not needed, and there are times where it is needed!

This thread has some really great points raised. I keep coming back for this type of dialog among engineers.

[cgarges]

My favorite quote (about tracking):

"that vocal was PERFECT! Now lets get a good one...."

Man, that's cool.



Unlike this:

What did the ProTools engineer say after a take?




"That sucked...



...c'mon in!"

Chris

[Shawn Simmons]

I actually had someone say this to me: "I know that take wasn't that good but is it good enough to autotune?" I was pretty shocked...I made him sing it again.

One thing that I've discovered, and this hints at Inverseroom's comments about being able to judge your music and your client's, is that the difference between bad and good is let's say 50-60%. The difference between good and really good is like 20%. And the difference between really good and amazing can be as small as 1-2%. The key is knowing when you have the amazing take and not ruining it (or erasing it!). Just an observation. I'm getting better and better at recognizing the 1-2% differences. That is where the magic happens.

I have definitely gotten more into emotionally great performances and less into technically great ones. Being perfect is boring.

By the way, I use compression on drums and I don't use compression on drums. I do what I want, it's my party and I'll compress if I want to. (You would compress too if it happened to you)

BFF,
Shawn

[@?,*???&?]

I actually had someone say this to me: "I know that take wasn't that good but is it good enough to autotune?" I was pretty shocked...I made him sing it again.

Let's say this:

"Musicians are inherently fucking lazy."

or this

"Musicians generally don'thave enough inherent ability."

or this

"The engineer is just fucking lazy."

How many of you would cop to that last comment?...and you're guilty of that what percentage of the time?

Ever work with somebody who just simply wasn't making the mental transition to be at the level they needed to be at? What then?

[cgarges]

How many of you would cop to that last comment?...and you're guilty of that what percentage of the time?

I would. Not a very large percentage of the time, but I will definitely admit to being lazy sometimes.

Chris