An open question to the community..

[Auslander]

Thanks so much to everyone for their replies to this thread.

The situation hasn't really changed on my end. The kids are still out there in reception, drinking coffee and on their mobiles bragging about the album they're currently involved with (sessions that they haven't even set foot in).

In the meantime, they aren't getting any album credits either (major, indie etc) based on having a "keen"attitude, something that I really enjoy giving to those who deserve it.

Sad, very sad.

[Kevin Kitchel]

Jesus christ I would have loved to have been there for Ithyphallic or especially Dreaming Neon Black. I would quit my job if I had a chance to intern like that.

[Auslander]

Jesus christ I would have loved to have been there for Ithyphallic or especially Dreaming Neon Black. I would quit my job if I had a chance to intern like that.

I mixed Ithyphallic and AOTW here in Chicago. DNB was done at a studio I use in Texas (I've done 72 albums there so far since '94) where the staff is, let's say, rather more enthusiastic about the stuff they work on.

[Anthony Caruso]

I think in interpreting enthusiasm levels you have to take into consideration the type of session that's happening. I am a staff assistant/engineer at a studio that does a lot of rap, R&B and pop. Many of these sessions are writing and vocal sessions. It is very hard to stay focused, let alone enthusiastic, when the clients have been looping the same 8 bars for the last hour-and-a-half (playing on the mains, full volume). It is hard to get excited when all I have to look forward to is setting up one microphone and then waiting for food orders. Sometimes the most challenging thing that happens is the remote for the cable TV box doesn't work (batteries usually help). Please, Lord God in Heaven, make something buzz or spontaneously combust and give me something to do!

But I could still learn something, right? I should stop being ungrateful and try to get something out of it...nope, sorry, maybe I'm totally delusional but I'm gonna say it, I can't learn anything from some of these sessions! For example, I have my method for fast, organized vocal tracking. I learned it from watching some very good engineers and producers and from doing it myself. Now when the clients are doing it, I space out. I read a book or surf the web. I write emails and stories. I am reading up on something music/engineering related. I catch up on paying bills. Plot world domination. Etc. I'm always in the room because I understand what being a good assistant is, but cannot find a reason to have any vested interest in these sessions. So when the loop starts, I use the time for me.

About a month ago I spent a week tracking a album that was 5-9 musicians (drums, electric or upright bass, 1 or 2 guitars, piano, B3, 4 horns, vocals) all playing live, with the last 2 days being a 24 piece string section and a 9 piece horn section which I got to track. THAT was why I got into this, totally different situation! Every minute of every day there was something to do...document, patch, re-seat fussy tube mics, make sure there was enough water in the live room, you name it. It was about as old school as you can get (minus the tape). I felt involved, useful (needed even!) and had a great sense of accomplishment at the end of the week. After that I did 2 weeks of engineering gigs which was sweet, 3 weeks of freelance work editing an amazing live festival show for a DVD, then right back here assisting on a lame ass writing session. These guys don't need an assistant engineer; they need a waiter/butler/butt wiper. And I'm pretty sure when I decided I would pursue this as a career I didn't see it being like it is.

So I guess what I'm trying to say is, things are probably a bit different these days (at least where I work). There aren't as many concrete things for the assistants to do on 80% of the session that come through here. True, the assistant shouldn't be hanging out at the front desk drinking coffee. But the guy in the corner of the control room typing on his laptop isn't lacking love or passion or talent for what he does; he's simply biding his time until someone needs more blunt wraps.

[GodDamn]

I guess this puts me in good stead...

Im currently the unpaid assistant at a small busy studio. Been there a couple of months, and fuck I have I learned a lot. I thought I was doing pretty well with my MBox2. I go in most days. I figure that I couldn't pay for the kind of lessons and experience i get for free, or in exchange for my tape-oping/punch-in fuckingup. I also make the tea.

Its fucking great, I cant imagine a better job.

[Auslander]

I guess this puts me in good stead...

Im currently the unpaid assistant at a small busy studio. Been there a couple of months, and fuck I have I learned a lot. I thought I was doing pretty well with my MBox2. I go in most days. I figure that I couldn't pay for the kind of lessons and experience i get for free, or in exchange for my tape-oping/punch-in fuckingup. I also make the tea.

Its fucking great, I cant imagine a better job.

Good for you mate! Keep it up. We need more people with that type of positive attitude.

[rwc]

I work as an intern at a studio now where I see this happen on occasion.

To be honest, sometimes it's me. I don't use my cellphone. There are some sessions there I don't care to sit on, because as arrogant as it sounds I don't feel I have something to learn from some of the engineers there. Some browse myspace, check their gmail, and use their blackberry while they're recording. They throw any random mic up anywhere and if it doesn't sound good he says he'll "fix it with plugins later".. which I try as hard as I can to not give a "WTF" look to.

I think maybe a reason some people aren't as involved with the session is because some engineers aren't either. I think the digital age has allowed a lot of people who have no business recording other people work at places that have no business advertizing 'professional' services as a studio. Maybe I'm at the only facility where this happens, but I'd rather check my own gmail than watch an engineer check his during a session. Or even better, have a friend play some of the instruments in the other room with every mic I can think of on them so I can see what they sound like. So when I do my own sessions, I'm not stuck "fixing it with plugins", I'll get the sound I want to disk.

Although I'd imagine this is the minority. This kind of stuff probably doesn't go down in studios that can afford consoles and a more professional environment(they can afford real engineers).

I'd like to emphasize that when the chief engineer and the staff he works with is around, I'll gladly lock the office, let everything to go voicemail so I can watch the session, and if I'm lucky, get to do something for him. I don't mind staying 12 hours a day for 5 days and 17 hours the last day if it means I get to watch sessions with talented people, or people I have something, anything to learn from. I'd take note of his setup, so when he asks me to be there at 10:30 for the 11:00 session, I'd be there at 9:30, and by 10:30, when he showed up, every mic was in the exact same position and exact same level on the preamp he had last time. Because he cared about the session, I cared about the session.

The people who act like ungrateful, premadonna assclowns when they could be sitting in on sessions with experienced engineers, I have no excuse for.

[Auslander]

RWC,

Thanks for your post. Some interesting stuff in there, and I understand what you're saying.

At the risk of sounding like a broken record, when I started in the business I was 17 years old and very keen to learn. The concept of internship had not been thought up, so when someone got a job at the studio they got an actual job. It didn't necessarily pay very much - my first salary was ?15/week (about $30 at the time) for a 40 hour week - but you did still have a sense of self-worth, and the fact that you were earning a wage did make a diference. I'm sure the internship programmes at a lot of studios eventually sap peoples' enthusiasm to the point where they just can't be bothered.

I was very lucky. Got a job at Trident as a teaboy. Made tea, coffee, cooked meals for the engineers, did security on the door, was a switchboard operator, laid carpets etc. etc. Oh, and as I was inside the studio door I had a million opportunities to meet people, engineers, producers, artists, manaers etc. I had quite a few opportunities (just by being present) to work on sessions when tape ops came down with colds/flu etc.

Did that for 6 months, then got promoted to tape op myself. This was of course the turning point. Now I was able to sit and watch and learn, most of the time from the best engineers in the world, and at other times from some not so good ones. Still, I sat and watched and soaked up what was going on, learned how to mic things up, how to wind cables without getting fired, how to set up for a 40 piece orchestra session. All of this by the tender age of 19.

I've been in the business now for 36 years. I'm still just as keen as I was when I was a teaboy. I've made almost 400 (released) records now. Yes there were times when I might have preferred to have been working on my own sessions rather than babysitting a struggling engineer who was flailing around trying to get a sound on something, but I would still be there to help out, to make suggestions or just get him some coffee as he sees his life flashing before his eyes.

I work at professional studios. I always have. By that I mean places that are not in someone's house where they are geared to a particular person's idiosyncracies, but instead studios where clients come and go and a multitude of sessions pass through them. The kids I see there, while not being teaboys with a pittance for a salary, are exposed to the same sort of thing that I was exposed to when I started. The desks are bigger now than they were when I started (things were 8 track going on 16 track back then) and the rooms are bigger and need more work to keep up than they used to.

Even so, when I take a quick bathroom break, I see them sitting out in the lounge watching the telly, or on the phone, or hanging out outside the front door smoking etc. When I go back into my session, I'm the only one there, apart from the client I'm working with, and often if I'm mixing I *am* the only one there. Same in the other studio. The actual control rooms are devoid of enthusiastic youngsters soaking up what's going on. In one place I work, the smokers will congregate in the recording room of one studio, while the person in the control room (usually me) sees them through the glass, making their calls, having their coffee, sitting around on the couch noodling on guitars etc.

Pretty much ANYTHING BUT being involved in the actual sessions. The studio owner walks in to the recording room and asks someone if they could please make a Starbucks run, and that person disappears for a few minutes, returns with said coffee, and then they go back into the recording room to hang out and NOT be involved with what's going on on the sessions.

If I didn't care about this phenomenon, I almost certainly wouldn't mention it in the first place, but I learned a great deal from watching what happened on sessions, keeping my mouth shut and watching producers and engineers go about their business etc. As a teaboy, I was able to silently sit in and be a spectator on sessions for Elton John, David Bowie, Cat Stevens, the Mahavishnu Orchestra, Carly Simon, Marc Bolan, JImmy Webb, Lindisfarne and many others. Producers/engineers like Gus Dudgeon, Rodger Bain, John Anthony, Richard Perry, Ken Scott, Robin Cable, David Hentschel, Roy Baker, Mike Stone, Dennis Mackay, Bill Schnee. And this was all before I was even working ON the sessions with them, which of course happened all over again once I was a tape op, or assistant engineer or engineer. I even got a chance to play on several albums (guitar or keyboards) while I was still a teaboy, simply because *I was there*. If I hadn't been visible, I would never had had the opportunity. Out of sight, out of mind. I was one of four people who did the handclaps on "Bennie and the Jets". I was the person who did the whistles. I've got some trivia to tell my grandchildren, because I was in the right place at the right time...and involved.

But seriously, all of this, and so much more, happened to me simply because I *wanted* to be involved and showed it.

I've really appreciated everyone's input into this thread - thanks a lot. I'm really not actually saying "well, back in my day..blah blah blah" - I'm just saying that there are so many lost opportunities these days, simply because people aren't around, or even in the room. If I need something done, I'm perfectly capable of doing it myself. There's nothing in the studio that I actually *need* someone to do for me at all, BUT if there were people there who I could ASK, they might feel involved in what's going on. They might get a spark of enthusiasm and start to have loads of fun, as opposed to spending all their time on their cellphones telling their friends about the *really cool session* that's going on in Studio B (they usually conveniently *forget* to say that they're not actually in the room of course)

I really don't understand it at all, but it seems to just be the way things are these days.

[rwc]

Here's another alternate take on it.

The place I work at now is a nicer studio, is different than where I worked before. It's truly world class, I would venture to say one of the best there is.

One of the guys there told me interns don't usually get to touch mics or sit in on sessions. His words, "this place has serious people, it's not like a training hospital" This makes sense for the fact that they do have big clients, do charge a lot of money, and are one of the best spaces to record in. Most people never even use artificial reverb units or plugins here because the shit sampled for them never sounds as good as the real rooms. I saw how mics were treated where I used to work. I was the guy always buying and soldering on new XLR connectors and I did get to solder wires back on the capsule of some AKG condensers that had been dropped so many times I'm surprised I could still recognize it. Not letting interns touch expensive stuff is understandable.

But what does that do for us? I am here solely for a letter of recommendation for my resume, because it's a big place and I think it's worth having it. I can still learn a ton from recording all sorts of bands in rehearsal spaces, and from here get some professional "experience.", and when a job interview comes up, I can lie and say the stuff I learned on my own from recording people is stuff I learned at the big studio. If I tell them I learned it from recording people in cheap rehearsal studios, they won't take it seriously. But if I told an interviewer the truth, "this superawesomemega place never allowed me the chance to even watch a session", it'd become useless on the resume. So I do my time here and they can go "ooh" and "aah" at the 'real world' experience but in reality it's only coming from what I make of my hobby on my own time. wtf is there to learn? If I can't sit in on sessions, much less figure out the signal flow of the studio like I have in smaller facilities or access the place so I can learn something that makes me more useful than a janitor. maybe that's why I'm out in the lounge doing nothing after I've finished cleaning everything. I learn more from recording random people in shitty rehearsal rooms by myself than I do from a full time internship that I come early, stay 3-5 hours late at, and work my ass off at. One could even venture to say it's an even bigger scam than audioschool(trading money for nothing vs trading time/work for nothing).

I've talked to and helped one of the assistants there on occasion. I think if I stand out as answering requests quickly, not responding like a spineless little twirp, maybe I can build a rapport with these guys. Recently he saw me finish washing the silverware, dishes, and cups, with little else to do since I spent the prior 7 hours organizing and disinfecting the place(even inside the urinals and vending machines - it got that boring), just so I wouldn't be standing around like your typical bottom of the barrel intern. He said "you know, man, you're welcome to come sit in on my sessions when I'm engineering and recording _anytime_. that's what you're here for anyway, right?" I said "really? wow, thanks!" and immediately went to it. I watched quietly for 10 minutes, and then had to go back to doing regular nonsense. The person who paged me asked where I'd been. "I was watching ****'s session, he invited me to come and see what he was doing." She reacted as if I did something wrong, as if I were jerking off in the lounge, so I stopped. It sucked. Why am I here?

I think that while a good amount of the lack of enthusiasm lies in douchebags with no work ethic, no drive, and no interest in recording, a lot of it stems from how big, and even small studios work these days. The small studios are a joke that are, in 90% of all cases, worse than a kid with protools/laptop/shitty rehearsal space to work with, and the big ones don't appear to give a crap who learns. I understand the idea that you only learn what you put out to learn, but it's pretty hard to even get to that stage. The idea of people teaching underlings doesn't seem to apply. It's not about training people to take the place of the old staff engineers, it's about making the place as freelance friendly and cheap as possible. The guy was right - "this isn't a teaching hospital"

There aren't as many opportunities for assistants anymore either it seems. I'd love to assist a good engineer and learn that way, but the reality of the situation seems to be there's nothing to learn but what I can learn myself. Record band ---> have ass handed to me ---> record band ---> do good job. Record unknown indie film score ---> have ass handed to me ---> record unknown indie film score ---> do good job. Over time learn what recording techniques gave me better sound and WRITE THEM DOWN! This seems to be a much better way to learn than an internship - if you want to record, record. Internships seem to be little more than a resume padder unless you get them at a place that allows opportunities for people who want to learn, to learn!

Maybe this is because I never got the opportunity to really learn the way some people get to at the end of the crapola, but it seems the most logical to me. I may quit internships all together and keep doing what I do now.. record new kinds of music, make mistakes I'll promise never to make again, and the next time record it properly and do a good job.

[Auslander]

I've always had a problem with the concept of internships - i.e. not getting paid a penny for your efforts. I don't agree with this principle at all.

Your attitude is positive. I commend you for that. I'm not sure what the hierarchy system is at this studio. Where I started (Trident) they rewarded keenness with oportunities to work. The pay was a pittance, but enough to survive. If you did a lot of overtime you got paid more, plus you got more experience, so that worked nicely.

The keener you were, the more you progressed, as long as you stuck by the rules and didn't take advantage of your position.

The studio I do most of my work at these days has their intern system. I was there yesterday, just poking my head in to say hello. There were two sessions, manned by a producer/engineer and an assistant in each, along with the clients. The lounge had 4 interns in it, all either watching TV or standing around smoking and laughing. Not one of them went into a session once, and I was there, in the same area, for over an hour. They are allowed into the sessions..not banned from them..at this studio.

Even so, noone made an effort to "cross the threshold" so to speak. I think that someone with a good work ethic and some genuine enthusism could go a long way there. It's not necessarily the ritziest place with the highest-profile clients, but it's always humming away with sessions. Two SSL rooms that are booked solid, week in and week out.

[rwc]

I disagree too, but what can you do? Demand money, get laughed at? That wouldn't go too well. People are happy to have any job in recording in large metropolitan areas.. getting paid is the next hardship. After someone sends out 70-120 resumes and gets one response, one isn't picky. This is the only way to have a chance to learn, which isn't working out too well since there are few if any chances to learn.

I've heard of trident. My old school's recording room was phasing out analog. They didn't repair it. The Trident console was actually being used as a table for the shitty cheap digital yamaha consoles. I remember one of the teachers poking fun in objection saying "At least the shit is laid on top of a sound foundation."

If I were allowed to sit in on sessions, things would be much different. There'd be no reason to go home. They have a shower on the top floor, food's always in the fridge, mouthwash and a comfy couch. I'd be there all day, all night, and never want to go home. As much as the situation sucks, when I walk by the lounge, sometimes I sit around to listen to what's being recorded. When no one's around I snoop into the room to see how they mic everything, or sneak into the machine room to see what's going on. I find it so much more kickass than recording mediocre shizzle in lame overpadded rehearsal spaces. If it weren't for the feeling I get when I walk by a room where people are recording jazz, heavy metal, and big bands, I'd have been out a long time ago.

That's unrealistic now it seems.

[BusyBoxSt7]

quick thoughts on this thread.

1) auslander: lazy interns seems like absolute BS. "fire" them.
2) sometimes it goes both ways (see below)
2a) cheap gear makes indentured servitude less attractive if it must last a great many years to get any real experience.

I live in Little Rock, AR. To my knowledge, there is no where worth interning here. I would LOVE an internship where I could go learn something. With the lack of studios here though it's been faster learning to buy really nice gear and just mess with it.

This principle MAY also apply (I wouldn't know) in large cities where SOME studios have real shitty attitudes toward anyone who'd like to intern. Ex: I was looking into moving to the NorthWest US at one point. Most studios were very, very helpful, but some were incredibly inconsiderate. I scheduled a visit w/ one in Vancouver (CA) and they canceled on me after I drove 3.5 hours to the border and they didn't bother to call me about it even and said "that's just the way the industry is" on the phone. That's just bullshit. An "industry" is a certain way due to the individuals who commit the actions in it. I had a worse experience w/ one in Seattle that I won't name. Anyway, this kind of behavior, hopefully rare, certainly casts a bad light on those given studios (and sometimes the whole idea of it). I would hope tape-opers would never act like that.

back to the indentured servant idea:
The stereotypical "move to LA or NY and serve coffee for 5 years before your actually in the session" type thing is LESS appealing to young potential interns than it once was. Why? Because gear is more easily available. To some, this translates to total DIY (like me due to lack of better local options). To others it just means finding a smaller or more kind studio that will allow more participation. All I'm saying is that there are more options now than there used to be (way more studios) so an individual has more "competition" in a sense in luring in the hard working interns. I.e. the hard working ones may want a little more in return than they used to.

Stephen

PS. in none of this am I saying that buying ANY amount of gear can EVER replace years of experience and thank God cause even at my low place on the totem pole there are others that think so and neglect proper research/experiences and this makes it easier for me (& others w/ work ethics) to get clients when someone "out gears" us but has no knowledge.