Worldwide music sales down again

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chris harris
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Post by chris harris » Wed Feb 20, 2008 11:44 am

@?,*???&? wrote:In other words, independent musicians produce crap on their own.

The place to place blame is the shameful predatory services like Discmakers and Oasis that sell the dream- if the independent musician even takes it that far...
dude... we've all seen your credits. we've all seen your hilarious displays of ignorance. why do you have to keep pretending that you're some kind of player in the major label music biz?

you'd probably do better than breaking even if you'd just come down to earth and start realizing where you actually fit in.

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Post by chris harris » Wed Feb 20, 2008 11:53 am

@?,*???&? wrote:I've talked to numerous music directors across the country that look down on burned discs of any kind. In no uncertain terms they've said, "we just don't have room in our control room for these kinds of discs". It's these stations that are making the argument for 'legitimate' product.
Here's the kicker... This is a pretty clear indication of how out of touch you are. How many commercial radio stations around the country still play music from compact disc? I've been to a few stations around town and around the country... they're all playing back from hard disk. Seriously Jeff, step outside. It's 2008! Turn the page on 1996.

It also doesn't matter what kind of disc your music is on. If it doesn't come with cash or a gift, it's not likely to get played on commercial radio. Seriously, after all that payola garbage came to light, is whether or not some douchebag music director plays a song really an indicator or quality or legitimacy?

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Post by MoreSpaceEcho » Wed Feb 20, 2008 12:06 pm

subatomic pieces wrote:How many commercial radio stations around the country still play music from compact disc?
pretty sure that number is rather close to zero.

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Post by AstroDan » Wed Feb 20, 2008 12:40 pm

You guy's can't handle Jeff's intellect. He's reading Sartre. Or some shit...I don't know.
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Post by Johnny B » Wed Feb 20, 2008 5:05 pm

@?,*???&? wrote:
Johnny B wrote:The vast majority of that is used vinyl and new indie albums on CD.
How many of those CDs were 'burned' without a barcode or professionally packaged?
IIRC, zero. I believe the last homemade CD I bought was in November 2006. It's got a spraypainted cover. Musically, it's very good. I like it a lot better than I like the Wilco record that came out last year on a big label owned by a multi-national corporation and had a barcode.

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Post by Johnny B » Wed Feb 20, 2008 5:10 pm

@?,*???&? wrote:
MoreSpaceEcho wrote:
@?,*???&? wrote:
Johnny B wrote:The vast majority of that is used vinyl and new indie albums on CD.
How many of those CDs were 'burned' without a barcode or professionally packaged?
jeff, this may come as a huge news flash to you, but there are in fact LOTS of real, LEGITIMATE indie labels out there. many of them have long histories in the biz. read some of the posts in this thread for some names. all these labels are putting out real cds and vinyl. just because you don't seem to ever listen to any good music doesn't mean there's not lots of it out there.
My question is pretty simple here- how many discs does this guy buy that are not burned and have no artwork with barcode.

The answer, it appears, is '0'. Which answers my question and reinforces the 'legitimate' aspect.

What you present here is 'noise'. I tune it out.
Oi! Wait for my answer before slagging me off. I'm sorry I was too busy working to log on the board last night. You'll see my answer in the previous post. Quite a different answer than you were expecting, I'm sure.

Anyway, a barcode does not good music make. There are plenty of releases by independent labels that are sold in actual stores to lots of people that don't have barcodes.

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Post by kdarr » Wed Feb 20, 2008 5:41 pm

@?,*???&? wrote: The place to place blame is the shameful predatory services like Discmakers and Oasis that sell the dream- if the independent musician even takes it that far...
Wait... what?! After 6 pages of thread, I'm not even sure I understand what your argument is anymore.

Are you saying that Disc Makers and Oasis are the reason that the music industry is failing? Because if your definition of a "legit" release is anything with shrink wrap and a barcode... well, last time I checked, that's exactly what you can get from both of those dupe facilities, and pretty much any other dupe facility for that matter. I fail to see how a regional band pressing a couple hundred CD's to sell at shows or at indie retailers has anything to do with the overall nosedive of the industry.

Maybe I'm missing your point. Did you HAVE a point? Help us out here.

[<|>]

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Post by Johnny B » Wed Feb 20, 2008 8:03 pm

@?,*???&? wrote: The guy a few pages back that said he buys only 'independent' reggae music or whatever fails to see he is still buying records that are distributed and are 'legitimate' releases as they are available at retail. He is not buying unmastered and burned CDs. No one is, but people are downloading that stuff and trading it. It's just common. Legitimate releases, while there are more now than there ever have been, are still uncommon by comparison.
No. Setting aside for a moment the argument of what is or is not "legitimate," my point was that in general these numbers are generated by big industry (Nielsen, the RIAA, chain stores), and do not take into account money spent at smaller retail operations on non-RIAA label material. The point was that I spend a pretty serious amount of money on music in a year and almost none of it is on product released on labels affiliated with the RIAA and almost none of it is at stores which report their sales to Nielsen.

Yes, I am buying records that are distributed and available at retail. But most of them are not counted in the sales figures that the industry is waving around. The RIAA doesn't give a damn about sales on labels that aren't paying to be a part of their group. And Nielsen isn't getting sales figures from little hole-in-the wall reggae shops that still write their receipts out by hand.

Furthermore, I then mentioned the segment of the population that the RIAA labels have been targeting the last decade or two and the other things vying for their disposable income. Has someone does a serious study into where Americans spend their disposable income, how much this income is, and how that affects spending on recorded music? The distinction on "recorded music" is deliberate. Don't forget that the average price of a concert ticket has gone up five or six times in 20 years while the price of a compact disc has less than doubled in the same time period. Until this study is done (or if it has been done, let's see some reference to it), these reports by the RIAA about how music sales are "down" is just a trade group griping about how it's not getting a fair deal. This is what trade groups do.

It's a good discussion starter, but for you to treat the story as gospel and berate others for holding different opinions on an unproven hypothesis is ridiculous. [/b]

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Post by GooberNumber9 » Wed Feb 20, 2008 10:36 pm

subatomic pieces wrote:
@?,*???&? wrote:I've talked to numerous music directors across the country that look down on burned discs of any kind. In no uncertain terms they've said, "we just don't have room in our control room for these kinds of discs". It's these stations that are making the argument for 'legitimate' product.
Here's the kicker... This is a pretty clear indication of how out of touch you are. How many commercial radio stations around the country still play music from compact disc?
And I was thinking "How many radio stations in this country have music directors?"!
Corporate programming is definitely in charge here in the DC area. It's been a couple years since I was in the local Clear Channel engineering bay (eight stations in DC are Clear Channel and all go through the same room before hitting the STLs) and even back then it was nothing to not only take the programming (meaning song selection) from corporate, they can go all the way to actually taking a single feed and broadcast it in multiple markets. They do it all the time during format changes. Station staff (mostly sales people and DJs) are called into a conference room. Once they are all there, engineering switches to a feed from a New York station that has the same format they are switching to. Then they overlay local traffic (meaning commercials) on top of the New York feed while they tell all the staff in the conference room that they are fired.

Five years ago you might have one Program Director for several stations in a single market. Now you have one PD for every station of the same format across the whole country.

Corporate stations in really small markets are often nowadays only transmitters, or maybe a single small studio where a local guy takes a few calls and manages traffic, while all the programming is brought in from another market.

The technology they use is actually really cool, if you can forget about how depressing it is what they do with it.

Oh yeah, and there are 0% CDs played on DC Clear Channel stations. They have been entirely audio server-based for music and traffic since 1998. Overnights are now fully automated which means no one is in a studio, the computer runs the station. There has been talk of 100% automated stations but I've never known of one myself. Again, single stations in the smallest markets might be 100% automated and can even be run remotely. Talk is still mostly live.

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Post by @?,*???&? » Thu Feb 21, 2008 10:13 am

Johnny B wrote:No. Setting aside for a moment the argument of what is or is not "legitimate," my point was that in general these numbers are generated by big industry (Nielsen, the RIAA, chain stores), and do not take into account money spent at smaller retail operations on non-RIAA label material. The point was that I spend a pretty serious amount of money on music in a year and almost none of it is on product released on labels affiliated with the RIAA and almost none of it is at stores which report their sales to Nielsen.
Find out if this store you go to is part of:

http://www.cimsmusic.com/

Also, find out what distributor they get their music from.

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Post by @?,*???&? » Thu Feb 21, 2008 10:14 am

subatomic pieces wrote:Here's the kicker... This is a pretty clear indication of how out of touch you are. How many commercial radio stations around the country still play music from compact disc? I've been to a few stations around town and around the country... they're all playing back from hard disk. Seriously Jeff, step outside. It's 2008! Turn the page on 1996.
For local music shows, discs will still be used, but mostly a program like Selector will be used for hard drive music programming. We know this. Get over it.

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Post by RefD » Thu Feb 21, 2008 10:51 am

@?,*???&? wrote:
subatomic pieces wrote:Here's the kicker... This is a pretty clear indication of how out of touch you are. How many commercial radio stations around the country still play music from compact disc? I've been to a few stations around town and around the country... they're all playing back from hard disk. Seriously Jeff, step outside. It's 2008! Turn the page on 1996.
For local music shows, discs will still be used, but mostly a program like Selector will be used for hard drive music programming. We know this. Get over it.
only places i've heard of "local music shows" anymore is on college radio and community radio.

certainly not on any network affiliate robo-stations.

so get over it.
?What need is there to weep over parts of life? The whole of it calls for tears.? -- Seneca

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Post by JGriffin » Thu Feb 21, 2008 10:56 am

RefD wrote:
@?,*???&? wrote:
subatomic pieces wrote:Here's the kicker... This is a pretty clear indication of how out of touch you are. How many commercial radio stations around the country still play music from compact disc? I've been to a few stations around town and around the country... they're all playing back from hard disk. Seriously Jeff, step outside. It's 2008! Turn the page on 1996.
For local music shows, discs will still be used, but mostly a program like Selector will be used for hard drive music programming. We know this. Get over it.
only places i've heard of "local music shows" anymore is on college radio and community radio.

certainly not on any network affiliate robo-stations.

so get over it.
We have a couple of local music shows on commercial radio in Chicago. They're basically a PR move, a half-hour late on Sunday nights that no one listens to except the bands whose CDs will get played that night, so the radio station can pretend they give a fuck about the local music scene.
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Post by RefD » Thu Feb 21, 2008 11:02 am

dwlb wrote:
RefD wrote:
@?,*???&? wrote:
subatomic pieces wrote:Here's the kicker... This is a pretty clear indication of how out of touch you are. How many commercial radio stations around the country still play music from compact disc? I've been to a few stations around town and around the country... they're all playing back from hard disk. Seriously Jeff, step outside. It's 2008! Turn the page on 1996.
For local music shows, discs will still be used, but mostly a program like Selector will be used for hard drive music programming. We know this. Get over it.
only places i've heard of "local music shows" anymore is on college radio and community radio.

certainly not on any network affiliate robo-stations.

so get over it.
We have a couple of local music shows on commercial radio in Chicago. They're basically a PR move, a half-hour late on Sunday nights that no one listens to except the bands whose CDs will get played that night, so the radio station can pretend they give a fuck about the local music scene.
i'm guessing the existence of that sort of thing depends on the market?

they certainly stopped doing that in our market in the mid-90s (about the time the last self-proclaimed rock station ceased to be, which was '97).

i'm also guessing the station plays an mp3 of the tune instead of the physical CD it was ripped from.
?What need is there to weep over parts of life? The whole of it calls for tears.? -- Seneca

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Post by chris harris » Thu Feb 21, 2008 11:03 am

@?,*???&? wrote:
subatomic pieces wrote:Here's the kicker... This is a pretty clear indication of how out of touch you are. How many commercial radio stations around the country still play music from compact disc? I've been to a few stations around town and around the country... they're all playing back from hard disk. Seriously Jeff, step outside. It's 2008! Turn the page on 1996.
For local music shows, discs will still be used, but mostly a program like Selector will be used for hard drive music programming. We know this. Get over it.
No cds being used here in Oklahoma City (not exactly on the cutting edge) for the local shows. Local music show or not, if you're hearing it on commercial radio, it's NOT being played from a cd.

BTW, exactly what the fuck does a "local music show" have to do with "legitimate" releases or "worldwide music sales"?!?!

Maybe if you spent less time reading trade publications and trying to pretend you're a player in yesterday's music business, you could see what's happening right in front of you.

I'm also curious about your "We know this" comment. Are you talking about you and the fucking mouse in your pocket? You talk like you've got people on your side in this argument (is that really what this is? I still don't understand what your argument is!)... Maybe "We know this" is telling? Maybe you've got "legitimate" mental or psychological disorders and we really shouldn't be making fun of you.

The truth is, I didn't even know that "Selector" is what they use. But, I also don't beat off to trade magazines and "talk to program directors around the country".

Anyway.... I'm kinda starting to feel bad now... Maybe we shouldn't be making fun of you. But, you certainly don't make it easy to resist.

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