Chris Camden's End Rant

[;ivlunsdystf]

Okay, rodc, I urge you to watch the highly underpublicized film 'idiocracy'. I thought of it when I read your last post.

In re: gtr solos: sometimes I am in the mood for guitar solos. Sometimes not so much.
In re: the end rant: I liked it and I agree with it. I still think hannamontana is superbly talented and is being put to perfect use by her corporate patrons. Gottarun

[Jay Reynolds]

*draws the line at voting Conservative*

Lucky for you, Mrs. Clinton won't be getting the nomination

[RefD]

*draws the line at voting Conservative*

Lucky for you, Mrs. Clinton won't be getting the nomination

she's kind of the Democratic party's answer to McCain: she'll say and do whatever she thinks she needs to in order to win and will engage in all kinds of distortion and revisionism.

err, we should really get back onto something relevant to this topic/forum/board!

[mikeyc]

Okay, okay! I confess to doing a bit of comping and (hopefully tasteful) editing on my contribution to the TOMB Neil Diamond tribute.

That shit was edited?

[;ivlunsdystf]

Okay, okay! I confess to doing a bit of comping and (hopefully tasteful) editing on my contribution to the TOMB Neil Diamond tribute.

That shit was edited?

Wellll ... Not prolly as much as ampguy edited his contribution, but ...

[Rolsen]

As much as I wish otherwise, I have to say that artists are in a poor position to judge what the art-consumers consume. People and entities have the right to influence and be influenced as they see fit, for whatever reason. Free will has not been compromised. It is a thousand times easier to discover new music today ?just dink around on myspace or Amazon for a few minutes and see for yourself!

The part that I don't get is why the folks in the 'biz' make their lives more difficult by choosing 'talent' that is so rough around the edges and takes so much polishing to get to sound/look 'right.' Aren't there thousands of both musically-talented AND good-looking people around?

[RefD]

Aren't there thousands of both musically-talented AND good-looking people around?

if so, damned few of them have ever gotten signed...or put out an independent release, for that matter.

but then that should give hope to the plain-lookin' folk with a DIY ethic.

[Wilkesin]

As music has become more ubiquitous, passive listening has become easier to get away with.

bingo. corporations have created a whole society of obedient, passive listening, consumer drones.

No they haven't. People just download pirated mp3s of that shit.

Chris shoulda just left dudes kick drum out. Woulda made them a more interesting band.

[i am monster face]

I don't really want to get over it.

I work in the independent singer/songwriter community. Radio play is limited to the lower end of the dial on public radio folk shows. There are so many good and great performers who can really deliver the goods at a live show, I feel complicit in stealing their bandwidth when I help an average or less than average performer with a CD that greatly exceeds what the public can expect if they go to a live show. I also don't want to clutter the already limited opportunities for radio exposure with the under the radar musicians with stuff that really just showcases my ability with software rather than the skill of the performer.


Neale Eckstein
www.myspace.com/foxrunstudio

Do you use compression? Does the artist insist you don't? Do you use reverb or eq? If you don't, that's fine. If you do, get over yourself, because editing is a performance enhancing tool, just like reverb, eq, and compression.

I know it's cool to be against auto tune and big, shiny productions right now, but c'mon. It's getting a little tired.

I do what I can do to make the best possible product for the bands that I record. I record indie singer songwriter bands as well and you know what? They're not satisfied with me leaving in errors. I edit things so that I can make the artist happy. Not so I can live up to some weird idea that I cannot use anything that will make the artists sound better than they do live. I could honestly care less what they truly sound like live. I don't work at a live venue, I work at a studio. If they wanted a live recording, by all means, record a live album. Musicians come to me and go to you because they want to record in a studio. So I give them the end product that they want so that they can compete with a quality product.

If your musicians are good enough to not have to edit anything, then that's awesome. I'm not telling you how to run your studio or what principals you should have.

[RefD]

one half-assed take and then two days of heavy editing just ain't right.

[Smitty]

i saw an autotune box on Craigslist the other day advertised as being capable of producing "the T-Pain sound."

not only do many fans not know how truly talentless their favorite artists are, the artists are getting extra credit for the fixes. it's like seeing a person on crutches and being like "man, where did you get those sweet walking props?!? i want those too!"

i find the above more interesting than irksome, but that's me...

also, having just read Bob Dylan's Chronicles, i was struck by how similar his feelings of popular radio at the time were to most Tape Op-pers today. it hasn't changed that much, i guess?

[chris harris]

i saw an autotune box on Craigslist the other day advertised as being capable of producing "the T-Pain sound."

not only do many fans not know how truly talentless their favorite artists are, the artists are getting extra credit for the fixes. it's like seeing a person on crutches and being like "man, where did you get those sweet walking props?!? i want those too!"

Autotune is not exactly a crutch for T-Pain. And, the use of it in this context wouldn't really be considered a "fix". It's an effect, and an aesthetic choice.

I'd rather have Autotune marketed to rappers for a robotic effect than have it be advertised as a miracle cure that can make anyone a great singer.

[Smitty]

i saw an autotune box on Craigslist the other day advertised as being capable of producing "the T-Pain sound."

not only do many fans not know how truly talentless their favorite artists are, the artists are getting extra credit for the fixes. it's like seeing a person on crutches and being like "man, where did you get those sweet walking props?!? i want those too!"

Autotune is not exactly a crutch for T-Pain. And, the use of it in this context wouldn't really be considered a "fix". It's an effect, and an aesthetic choice.

I'd rather have Autotune marketed to rappers for a robotic effect than have it be advertised as a miracle cure that can make anyone a great singer.

autotune is a crutch for T-pain if he couldn't really sing like that (i don't mean the weird slidey effect, i mean those notes). do you think he can?

if i had a machine that magically sped up and varied the notes of my guitar solos to sound awesome, even if i just recorded the original part by ham-fistedly playing the same note over and over again, off-time, would that not be a crutch?

i'm not in the "anti-autotune no matter what" camp, nor am i against using available tools to make good recordings sound better.... but when people who are trying to make music think that they need tools instead of talent... is more where i think the problems begin.

[chris harris]

autotune is a crutch for T-pain if he couldn't really sing like that (i don't mean the weird slidey effect, i mean those notes).

THAT is the disconnect and the problem I had with your post. I'm quite sure that the advertisement that you saw that referenced the "t-pain sound" WAS referencing the "weird slidey effect"

So, he's not getting "extra credit for the fixes". He's actually getting acknowledged for having a signature (if a little cliche) vocal sound as a result of a special effect. There's nothing sad about that. And, nothing to lament.

do you think he can?

I honestly don't know much about the guy other than he's the "cher effect" guy.
And, I don't care if he can sing.

if i had a machine that magically sped up and varied the notes of my guitar solos to sound awesome, even if i just recorded the original part by ham-fistedly playing the same note over and over again, off-time, would that not be a crutch?

actually, it sounds like it would be a pretty creative use of a magic machine to me!

i'm not in the "anti-autotune no matter what" camp, nor am i against using available tools to make good recordings sound better.... but when people who are trying to make music think that they need tools instead of talent... is more where i think the problems begin.

I agree with that. I just don't think that the argument is really applicable to T-Pain or the silly ad you saw for AutoTune. The ad was specifically advertising AutoTune as a "special effect" and not as a crutch for creating perfect performances.

[Smitty]

THAT is the disconnect and the problem I had with your post. I'm quite sure that the advertisement that you saw that referenced the "t-pain sound" WAS referencing the "weird slidey effect"

I suppose my point is that T-pain's 'effect' is the extreme result of what began as a fix. And, it may not have been intended as an effect when it was done in the first place. I do recognize the parallels here between this and other accepted techniques. Reverb plugins are, in actuality, a crutch for me because I don't have access to a cathedral. I don't feel bad about that, but I also don't play it off as though I do have a cathedral.

I honestly don't know much about the guy other than he's the "cher effect" guy.
And, I don't care if he can sing.

Well, I do, insofar as this discussion goes. I like lots of music featuring people that can't sing very well. I also like lots of music featuring people who's on-recording talent is likely "enhanced" beyond their real-life abilities. But I don't typically like music in which the main "performer" is the least important, most replacable aspect of the entire production. That takes the soul out of it for me. I don't fault others for digging it, but for my chunk of the interest pie, I'm out.

actually, it sounds like it would be a pretty creative use of a magic machine to me!

Sure it would, but then the person programming the machine would be the creative one, and not the one playing the guitar. But the machine programmer wouldn't end up knee-deep in whiskey and groupies on tour, or onstage holding a Grammy, or in a rediculous mansion in Beverly Hills, etc.

A crutch is a crutch. I don't suddenly get better at math when I pick up a calculator. I can't suddenly fly when I get in an airplane. But if I step into a studio and get processed-to-hell, then suddenly I'm an amazing performer?

I just don't think that the argument is really applicable to T-Pain or the silly ad you saw for AutoTune. The ad was specifically advertising AutoTune as a "special effect" and not as a crutch for creating perfect performances.

I think it is applicable. As is the discussion previously had on TOMB about the gradeschool choirgirl who had taught herself to sing naturally as though she was being processed through Autotune. What was once a fix has now become a technique. She saw that sound as a legitimate part of vocal performance, hence her learning it.

It is here that I point to a specific example and say "here is yet another place in which the general music-buying american public, not knowing better, has accepted the smoke and mirrors as the real thing, and moved on from there." It's life imitating technology imitating life.

But it is different than reverb and echo and chorus, etc., because we are moving ever closer to a point at which technology shoulders a larger burden in the process than talent. And where is the tipping point? Is it hard to envision a time in which any person could enter a small self-contained machine, mumble/scream/wail/shout into a mic, and walk away minutes later with a fully realized and polished studio recording shaped in part by their "performance?"

And when that machine is invented, will you be giving engineering credits and praise to the guy who plugs it into the wall and walks away? Singing credits to the mumbler?

It's a slippery slope. I think I know where I personally draw the line between talent and trickery... a conclusion that means precisely squat to anybody else.