MS techniques in the box

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iC
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MS techniques in the box

Post by iC » Fri May 23, 2008 12:41 pm

Hi folks,

DAW is PTle6.9,OSX10.4.8. For additional plug-ins i run FxPansion's VST-RTAS wrapper.

One means of MS processing i use is to insert Soundhack's encoder (LR-MS) on a stereo channel's first insert. Then whatever plugs to process on the following inserts, then a second instance of Soundhack's encoder (now MS-LR). Unfortunately, working in this manner does not allow for different processor for Mid and Side. Any stereo/dual-mono plug-in will process both mid and side. I haven't found any plug-ins that allow for muting the left or right sections independently, thus allowing for bypassing the intended/unintended processing.
To utilize the technique to its fullest,i am seeking two things:
1. Is there a plug-in to allow two independent plug-ins on one insert? A sort of Digital splitter?
2. is there a plug-in to act as a Drawmer ThreeSum does? a more sophisticated implementation (possibly?) of question 1...and then i'm only asking ,really, one thing :)
I realize i can encode then split out to the three channel matrix and process on independent channels.... just curious if a plug exists to allow for independent plugins for mid and side in a single stereo channel?

wow. that's alot harder to write out than imagine:)
thanks for any response, kevin
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Post by NeglectedFred » Sat May 24, 2008 6:40 am

I know there are probably more advanced ways to decode MS signals to give you more options, but this idea is the basic foundation for MS. I just do it manually.

Left = Mono mix of M + S
Right = Mono mix of M + Phase Inverted S.

Change the levels before mixing down for the desired amount of spread.

Sometimes the amplitude will be less on the right side, so I usually normalize or limit until it looks and sounds right.
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Post by nordberg » Thu May 29, 2008 8:02 pm

i set up a stereo delay on the side track. i set L and R delay to 0ms and 100% mix and invert one of the sides. i never actually sum them to LR before mixdown because i usually end up effecting them differently. actually i almost only use M/S when i'm really slamming the mid and letting the sides breathe...
not realistic but i really like that effect. sorry i'm ranting.
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Post by Professor » Thu May 29, 2008 11:45 pm

I don't use any plugs to decode the M/S signal in ProTools, instead I route through a couple of Aux channels.

Here's the idea:
I record the Mid & Side separately to two mono tracks.
I route the Mid track to Bus 3 & 4 so it is split and fed to both channels of the stereo pair.
I route the Side track to Bus 1&2 quite the same way.
I create one stereo Aux for 1&2, put the Digi "Trim" plug on it, and flip the right side. I route the output of the bus to 3&4
I create another stereo Aux for buss 3&4, the signal arriving there is already decoded because it is a sum of the Mid coming directly from the track, and the Side routed through busses 1&2 with the Trim plug handling the flip. I route the output of that aux track to a pair of channels on the mixing console (because I mix outside the box).


It sounds kinda complicated, and looks a little complicated, but it really is pretty straight forward and it allows me to decode M/S to L/R, process as needed, automate as needed, etc. And I never have to duplicate tracks or use the Audio-Suite "Invert" plug-in which is fine enough except that it adds more data to the hard drive that doesn't need to be there.


But if I'm reading you right, you want to take a stereo L/R track, convert to M/S for processing, then convert back to L/R.
The method you use is pretty slick since it all happens within the plugs of one stereo channel. If you want to process the sides individually you should be able to insert a "multiple-mono" plug-in instead of a "multi-channel" plug-in. That variety of plugs should have a button in the upper right that is an L (or R) next to a little chain "link" icon. Click the link icon to break the link, and you can process the L and R separately on that plug. Works for EQs, compressors, whatever. In your case, those L & R channels would be your Mid & Side, but it should work just the same.
If you wanted more visual reassurance for what you are doing, or if you want different types of EQs & comps, not just different settings, then you can take my approach of using Aux tracks and busses.
- Take your L/R stereo track, run it through the Soundhack L/R to M/S encoder, and send the output to busses 1&2.
- Create two mono Aux tracks pulling the input from Bus 1 for one of them and Bus 2 for the other. Route their outputs to Bus 3 and Bus 4, respectively.
- Process on the two mono Aux tracks. The one carrying Bus 1 to Bus 3 would be your Mid channel, while the other will be your side.
- Create a stereo Aux channel with an input from Busses 3&4 and send the output wherever your mix goes. Run back through the Soundhack plug to turn the M/S back to L/R.
And you're done.


Hope that all makes sense.

-Jeremy

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iC
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Post by iC » Fri May 30, 2008 8:08 am

But if I'm reading you right, you want to take a stereo L/R track, convert to M/S for processing, then convert back to L/R.
The method you use is pretty slick since it all happens within the plugs of one stereo channel. If you want to process the sides individually you should be able to insert a "multiple-mono" plug-in instead of a "multi-channel" plug-in. That variety of plugs should have a button in the upper right that is an L (or R) next to a little chain "link" icon. Click the link icon to break the link, and you can process the L and R separately on that plug. Works for EQs, compressors, whatever. In your case, those L & R channels would be your Mid & Side, but it should work just the same.
If you wanted more visual reassurance for what you are doing, or if you want different types of EQs & comps, not just different settings, then you can take my approach of using Aux tracks and busses.
- Take your L/R stereo track, run it through the Soundhack L/R to M/S encoder, and send the output to busses 1&2.
- Create two mono Aux tracks pulling the input from Bus 1 for one of them and Bus 2 for the other. Route their outputs to Bus 3 and Bus 4, respectively.
- Process on the two mono Aux tracks. The one carrying Bus 1 to Bus 3 would be your Mid channel, while the other will be your side.
- Create a stereo Aux channel with an input from Busses 3&4 and send the output wherever your mix goes. Run back through the Soundhack plug to turn the M/S back to L/R.
And you're done.
yep. multi-mono plugs. This is how i have been approaching my plan. Only issue is i'm pretty sure you can't BYPASS one channel of a multi-mono plug..... But that must be tested. See if i can get that done before running out to see Wire tonite.
These ideas are stemming from reading the well written reviews of various MS processors and the three-sum, and yes, trying to be "Slick" and keeping my channel count down and best implementing the limited bussing capabilities of PTle 6.9.
SO who's gonna make a digital drawmer-esque Three Sum???!!
MASSEY?
SOUNDHACK?
Thanks folks for engaging:) -kev
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iC
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STILL WANT THE DIGITAL THREESUM!!

Post by iC » Fri May 30, 2008 1:13 pm

ahhh yes.
so multi-mono does allow for bypass action on individual sides....bravo!
Now i'm off to the races. Thanks all!
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Post by Kyle » Mon Jun 02, 2008 12:24 pm

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