Is Anyone Using Two Mics For Kick Drum?

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Is Anyone Using Two Mics For Kick Drum?

Post by akg414 » Wed Sep 17, 2008 7:41 am

I'm mixing my band's album as we went with two mics (421 for attack) and D12 for Oomph...

Sounds ok, but I was listening to some of my other recordings with only one mic and they are just fine.
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Post by thecheat » Wed Sep 17, 2008 7:56 am

I Generally use two mics for kick pretty routinely.

Did you check the phase?

Sennheiser 602 and Shure SM-7.

I find that you really have to accentuate the qualities you want before you blend, which generally, in my experience means losing alot of the low end in the "attack" mic and vise versa for the "Oomph" mic, but to be fair ive never been thrilled with the sound of a d112 regardless.

That being said, alot of things have ruined a good kick drum sound that had nothing to do with mic choice.

some more detail would probably be helpful for us.

Lata

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Post by akg414 » Wed Sep 17, 2008 8:11 am

thecheat wrote:I Generally use two mics for kick pretty routinely.

Did you check the phase?

Sennheiser 602 and Shure SM-7.

I find that you really have to accentuate the qualities you want before you blend, which generally, in my experience means losing alot of the low end in the "attack" mic and vise versa for the "Oomph" mic, but to be fair ive never been thrilled with the sound of a d112 regardless.

That being said, alot of things have ruined a good kick drum sound that had nothing to do with mic choice.

some more detail would probably be helpful for us.

Lata

Chris
Yeah, the phase is all good. I'm using a D12 (not 112). I'm just thinking that my recordings with only the D12 sound pretty nice.

One thing I did notice though (regarding phase) was this:

I EQ each track - to accentuate the qualities of each mic. But when played together, it seemed to push the phase around to the point that the low end was diminished quite a bit.

Any suggestions on getting around this?
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Post by chris harris » Wed Sep 17, 2008 8:20 am

bradjacob wrote:Yeah, the phase is all good. I'm using a D12 (not 112). I'm just thinking that my recordings with only the D12 sound pretty nice.

One thing I did notice though (regarding phase) was this:

I EQ each track - to accentuate the qualities of each mic. But when played together, it seemed to push the phase around to the point that the low end was diminished quite a bit.

Any suggestions on getting around this?
Your phase is clearly not "all good".

Are you checking the phase relationship between the two mics with your eyes or with your ears?

If you're happy with the sound of just the d12, then why are you adding another mic?

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Post by akg414 » Wed Sep 17, 2008 8:43 am

subatomic pieces wrote:
bradjacob wrote:Yeah, the phase is all good. I'm using a D12 (not 112). I'm just thinking that my recordings with only the D12 sound pretty nice.

One thing I did notice though (regarding phase) was this:

I EQ each track - to accentuate the qualities of each mic. But when played together, it seemed to push the phase around to the point that the low end was diminished quite a bit.

Any suggestions on getting around this?
Your phase is clearly not "all good".

Are you checking the phase relationship between the two mics with your eyes or with your ears?

If you're happy with the sound of just the d12, then why are you adding another mic?
Why add another mic? Experimenting... Something that I tried only to find that I like one-mic better.

But with the two, there was an issue with low end going away. Phase was good with no EQ. String low end - as well as a visual wav-form representation. EQ DOES shift phase, so I'm trying to find a good way of dealing with it.
- Brad

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Post by @?,*???&? » Wed Sep 17, 2008 9:01 am

Wow, another two mic on kick drum thread...

I use three.

Why did you use two dynamic mics on your kick?

With the steep roll-off below 80 Hz on a dynamic mic, you pretty much avoided capturing any frequency below 80Hz.

A large diaphragm condensor with a flat frequency usually makes a great combination with a dynamic.

Combine those two with a subkick, and you've got alot of options at the time of the mix.

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Post by rwc » Wed Sep 17, 2008 9:04 am

Why do you keep asserting that "phase is good" if you hear the low end going away when you add another mic?

How would you LOSE anything, by adding another mic, if the phase was good?

It's not good.
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Post by johnny7 » Wed Sep 17, 2008 9:18 am

In the future, you could try moving one mic back and forth in relationship to the other. In combination with flipping the phase of one of them, you'll find a spot where turning on your 2nd mic won't subtract from the other. You may find a pleasing combination.

Having said that... I am usually happy with one mic on kick (+bleed)

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Post by RoyMatthews » Wed Sep 17, 2008 9:21 am

@?,*???&? wrote:Wow, another two mic on kick drum thread...

I use three.
Oh, it's on! I'm goin' to four mics now. Don't no one try to stop me!

Beat that. It'll sound one better
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Post by Recycled_Brains » Wed Sep 17, 2008 9:24 am

I can't see the point of 2 mics inside the drum. I have used up to 3 "kick" mics in the past, but never 2 inside.

using the 421 on the batter head would give you more attack to blend with the d12.

just remember to flip the phase on one of them.

Try an LDC out front too, if you want to try multiple mics. Move it back and forth until the low end is good. Also make sure the snare sounds good in context with the FOK mic.

If you're hearing the low end disappear, the mics are not in phase.

EDIT: Got off topic.
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Post by akg414 » Wed Sep 17, 2008 9:31 am

rwc wrote:Why do you keep asserting that "phase is good" if you hear the low end going away when you add another mic?

How would you LOSE anything, by adding another mic, if the phase was good?

It's not good.
Ok, spare the phase lesson here...

I set up the two mics about two feet from on another, then checked the phase. (by flipping switch until you find which one sounds better, then choosing that one. Also tweaked it by moving around a little until the low end was nice).

The reason for the post was because it the first time I used two mics on the kick, and it simply produced some unexpected results. It's a weird situation - one I never encountered before. But let me clarify something before everyone else starts getting annoyed: the low end doesn't completely disappear. It just seems to NOT do that much when added.

The post before this (from "@?,*???&?") one seems to clears up the mystery perfectly . Using two dynamics instead of using a LDC. This was not by choice, we just ran out of LDC mics during tracking - and the only other one was a CAD E200, mind you, it's battery was dead.

But problem solved... If you don't capture it, you can't boost it.
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Post by chris harris » Wed Sep 17, 2008 9:38 am

I use a dynamic on the inside (d112) paired with a dynamic on the outside (re27) all the time. If they're in phase, is sounds great when the two are added together.

Your d12 actually has a little bump in frequency response between about 40hz and 120hz.

Jeff's suggestion that using two dynamic mics is what your problem is, is bunk. You're just doing something wrong. If the mics are in phase, but then jump out of phase when you EQ them after the fact, then you're doing something wrong. Maybe use less EQ? Maybe try an EQ with less phase shift? Are you EQing these tracks in solo?

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Post by chris harris » Wed Sep 17, 2008 9:41 am

btw, you DID SAY that the "low end goes away" when you combine the two mics. Now you're backtracking on that?

YOU HAVE PHASE PROBLEMS

Whether it's coming from bad tracking practices or poor use of equalization, you do have phase problems. Using an LDC isn't gonna fix that. You need to come to grips with the problem that you're actually having before you go adding more potential problems to the equation.

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Post by T-rex » Wed Sep 17, 2008 9:44 am

yeah if the low end is going away then the phase is not so good. I mean EQ will add phase issues but not nearly enough to make the low end dis-appear, especially considering you are bound to be boosting some lows on one of the mic's EQ's. You're using a DAW right? I wouldn't do this normallym but try nudging one of the mic tracks and see if your low end comes back. Plus, are both kick mic;s in phase with the OH's, the room mics, the tom mics etc. If any mic up in the mix is out of phase with either of the kick mics, your low end will be affected.

I usually use a D112 or Senn 602 up close and a Blue Mouse outside the kick. I love it. BUT with that said, I got some great kick sounds with just a D112 right at the hole in the front head (or close to that depending on the drum) and added some oomph from the room mics to help the kick sound.
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Post by ArmagideonTime » Wed Sep 17, 2008 9:59 am

Dynamic in the shell and LDC out is more typical than 2 dynamics. As a particularly outstanding example (i think), on London Calling, Bill Price used a D12 in the shell, and a U47 outside the resonant head.

I often use an Audix D6 (which i like the attack on more than most of my other low-freq mics, save maybe the 602). With a Rode NT1000 on the outer head.

That said, On a particular 24" kick we use frequently when tracking, it's regular practice use a Senn 602 about an inch away from beater contact point, with an AKG D112 snuck just barely into the hole cut out of the resonant head, and it works very well (in this case), without much EQ.

So I feel like placement and circumstance means as much as mic choice does.

If you're having trouble placing 2 mics and getting a good sound, there's always the Audio-Technica AE2500, which i've been eyeballing for a while.

It does however look like you do have a phase issue in this case. You can try to slip the tracks, or delay one or the other of them, if just hitting the phase reverse switch isnt helping. or if you think the EQ is doing the shifting, try a linear phase EQ.

If nothing works, I think the obvious solution is to drop the 421, if the D12 sounds passable by itself.

Good luck.
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