telling a drummer thats just tooo many toms!

[mjau]

RE: Terry Bozzio

It never fails that a photo of his kit will turn up in a thread like this.

Chris Garges
Charlotte, NC

Totally OT, but I've always wanted to see the keyboard equivalent of the Bozio pic.

Now that would be awesome.

There's some good Herbie Hancock pics like that.

On a Herbie sidenote: I've been listening to Sunlight a lot lately. How cool is that record?

[cgarges]

There's some good Herbie Hancock pics like that.

Did you ever see that tribute to Bob Moog that he, Stevie Wonder, Howard Jones, and Thomas Dolby did n the AMAs in like 1984? I think it was the AMAs. Maybe it was the Grammys. Anyway, that was the first year that I taped those shows and my mind was blown. I wonder if that's on youtube?

Aha, it is!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KGzWqAc16l0

Chris Garges
Charlotte, NC

[mjau]

Watching it now...this is so awesome! It's like a mad genius lab.

[JGriffin]

RE: Terry Bozzio

It never fails that a photo of his kit will turn up in a thread like this.

That's why I'm here, to get the obvious shit out of the way!



And: "Punky's Whips" rules.

[centurymantra]

RE: Terry Bozzio

It never fails that a photo of his kit will turn up in a thread like this.

Chris Garges
Charlotte, NC

Totally OT, but I've always wanted to see the keyboard equivalent of the Bozio pic.

Now that would be awesome.

[JGriffin]

I think a certain amount of this discussion comes down to "How much of your job is it to do whatever your client wants?" versus "How much of your job is it to guide your client, since you're probably the one with more experience and knowledge?"

There's a prejudice, an assumption in those questions, and that assumption is that anyone who chooses to play a drum set with lots of toms is already in the wrong and needs to be corrected. Let's examine this.

So many of these threads start out with an obvious bias: the OP doesn't like big drum sets, or 7-string guitars, or piccolo snares, or 5-string basses, or fretless basses, or valve trombones. Generally it's because those instruments have been predominantly used in styles of music the OP doesn't like.

And so, either the musician in question is playing one of these horrid, reviled styles of music or they're just using an instrument that the engineer associates with "bad" music, and what then? If the music isn't "the bad music," the engineer should maybe just get over himself and record the band...and if it IS "the bad music," why did the engineer take the gig?

Perhaps the better question is "How much say should the engineer have in what instruments the band plays?" or "How directly should the engineer's musical tastes dictate the material the band records?"

I'd also argue that inexperience or lack of knowledge isn't always the cause of a player choosing an instrument that, for lack of a better phrase, reeks of excess. The player may have a perfectly valid reason for wanting 16 toms or no frets. I may or may not enjoy Neil Peart or Terry Bozzio's music, but I do recognize that their instrument choices are dictated by the musical ideas they choose to express, and not by inexperience or lack of knowledge.

[Gentleman Jim]

B. Benjamin/S. Marcus/C. Cadwell wrote:

But I'm just a soul whose intentions are good
Oh Lord, please don't let me be misunderstood

I didn't mean to convey a bias in those questions. I meant to apply them in the broadest sense, not necessarily only to this thread or to questions about instrument choice.

We've probably all encountered a situation where somebody is looking to achieve a result that either we disagree with artistically or can't be achieved as well as we would like technically. My questions were meant to address that circumstance. And the variables involved when that happens can be so numerous and dynamic that making a hard and fast pronouncement is almost dishonest on its face.

dwlb wrote:

So many of these threads start out with an obvious bias: the OP doesn't like big drum sets, or 7-string guitars, or piccolo snares, or 5-string basses, or fretless basses, or valve trombones. Generally it's because those instruments have been predominantly used in styles of music the OP doesn't like.

And so, either the musician in question is playing one of these horrid, reviled styles of music or they're just using an instrument that the engineer associates with "bad" music, and what then? If the music isn't "the bad music," the engineer should maybe just get over himself and record the band...and if it IS "the bad music," why did the engineer take the gig?

I agree with nearly all of this. But I have no problem with valve trombones.

[jmiller]

Just once I'd like to hear from a drummer complaining about how the engineer who worked on his last record had 15 different sets of mic pres.

I had to quote that, 'cause it seemed to get missed and I thought it was funny.

[chris harris]

Perhaps the better question is "How much say should the engineer have in what instruments the band plays?" or "How directly should the engineer's musical tastes dictate the material the band records?"

That kind of depends on the reason that the band chose the engineer. Is it because they called everyone in the phone book and this was the cheapest? Well, then the engineer should stay out of the way and record the band the way they sound. But, if they chose the engineer based on his/her credits, or the sounds that they've recorded in the past, then I'd say the engineer has a RESPONSIBILITY to make suggestions about how to achieve a great sound. This may mean tuning up the gear. It may also mean recommending other gear.

But, to make recommendations based on your own prejudice about certain types of gear or setups is lame as hell. Make them sound as good as possible with what they have. If you're not getting awesome sounds, then suggest that they try something else and then let them make the decision based on what they HEAR.

It's not your place to tell them how many toms to use. It's your responsibility to make it sound as good as you can. If you can't, then I agree with a previous poster that you should pass on the job.

[JGriffin]

Perhaps the better question is "How much say should the engineer have in what instruments the band plays?" or "How directly should the engineer's musical tastes dictate the material the band records?"

That kind of depends on the reason that the band chose the engineer. Is it because they called everyone in the phone book and this was the cheapest? Well, then the engineer should stay out of the way and record the band the way they sound. But, if they chose the engineer based on his/her credits, or the sounds that they've recorded in the past, then I'd say the engineer has a RESPONSIBILITY to make suggestions about how to achieve a great sound. This may mean tuning up the gear. It may also mean recommending other gear.

But, to make recommendations based on your own prejudice about certain types of gear or setups is lame as hell. Make them sound as good as possible with what they have. If you're not getting awesome sounds, then suggest that they try something else and then let them make the decision based on what they HEAR.

It's not your place to tell them how many toms to use. It's your responsibility to make it sound as good as you can. If you can't, then I agree with a previous poster that you should pass on the job.

All good points. Since the OP was asking his question based on an email...I'd say (as other have already) he should wait to pass judgment until after he actually hearsr the drums.

[chris harris]

Definitely!

I also want to give props to this post:

i have a nice kit here that i think sounds better than what a lot of people bring in, but personally i would RATHER record their kits just because it's something NEW. i've recorded mine a billion times already. let's hear what yours sounds like. and if something really isn't sounding so hot, we'll retune, or change heads, or swap it out for one of my drums and move on.

I, too, would prefer to record their stuff. It presents much more of a challenge than just recording my kit over and over. And, those challenges are what make us grow.

[JGriffin]

dwlb wrote:

So many of these threads start out with an obvious bias: the OP doesn't like big drum sets, or 7-string guitars, or piccolo snares, or 5-string basses, or fretless basses, or valve trombones. Generally it's because those instruments have been predominantly used in styles of music the OP doesn't like.

And so, either the musician in question is playing one of these horrid, reviled styles of music or they're just using an instrument that the engineer associates with "bad" music, and what then? If the music isn't "the bad music," the engineer should maybe just get over himself and record the band...and if it IS "the bad music," why did the engineer take the gig?

I agree with nearly all of this. But I have no problem with valve trombones.

Just wanted to see who was paying attention.

[*cisko*]

hey who know he might just need all of them if he's ina prog or metal band.....
no harm in listening to the drums, if hes a good enough drummer he might surprise you!

[the finger genius]

Just once I'd like to hear from a drummer complaining about how the engineer who worked on his last record had 15 different sets of mic pres.

I had to quote that, 'cause it seemed to get missed and I thought it was funny.

I dig your style too, dude.

[Fakiekid]

I think a certain amount of this discussion comes down to "How much of your job is it to do whatever your client wants?" versus "How much of your job is it to guide your client, since you're probably the one with more experience and knowledge?"

There's a prejudice, an assumption in those questions, and that assumption is that anyone who chooses to play a drum set with lots of toms is already in the wrong and needs to be corrected. Let's examine this.

So many of these threads start out with an obvious bias: the OP doesn't like big drum sets, or 7-string guitars, or piccolo snares, or 5-string basses, or fretless basses, or valve trombones. Generally it's because those instruments have been predominantly used in styles of music the OP doesn't like.

er excuse me, who the hell are you to judge what my opinions are, sorry i forgot you were god, please tell me more, do you have a fanclub!?

Ive not recorded them before no, seen them few times, enough to know this kid doesnt need his second floor tom. We've discussed and agreed.

DONE!