Aiight, let's talk RMS level during psuedo-mastering
Aiight, let's talk RMS level during psuedo-mastering
First, I have no $ or interest in professional mastering as my songs are just for me and mine and whoever feels like listening - I sell nothing, bill for nothing, and don't wanna - it's my art, start to finish. And I note I'm too prolific to even consider ...
So, what I'm on about is, assuming I have my mixes completed and all EQ, etc., done to 'em and I'm at the stage of sequencing and setting an average gain for an "album", is there a target RMS level to shoot for?
Yes, I shall use my ears, etc.; I'm just curious, is there an initial RMS level that you use as standard?
And is that level initially set by the loudest passages of the particular song, or the average of the whole song, or something different?
I mean, do all y'all even consider RMS level?
Finally, I've read tons, I've UTFSF'd until my brain hurts; I wanna know what all you fine folks here at TOMB do.
Or don't.
So, what I'm on about is, assuming I have my mixes completed and all EQ, etc., done to 'em and I'm at the stage of sequencing and setting an average gain for an "album", is there a target RMS level to shoot for?
Yes, I shall use my ears, etc.; I'm just curious, is there an initial RMS level that you use as standard?
And is that level initially set by the loudest passages of the particular song, or the average of the whole song, or something different?
I mean, do all y'all even consider RMS level?
Finally, I've read tons, I've UTFSF'd until my brain hurts; I wanna know what all you fine folks here at TOMB do.
Or don't.
- A.David.MacKinnon
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I always advocate having someone else (hopefully a pro) do the mastering but on those rare occasions where I have to do it myself i set the overall level of each song by ear. That usually means jumping back and forth from song to song and adjusting levels as I go. I use the vocal as my main reference. Once everything is roughed in I apply whatever comps and limiting I want and then check everything again.
- joninc
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Looking at the wave forms of a few albums you think are relevant references can be helpful in terms of level. Some albums are quieter than you think and sound great because of gentler approach to limiting and compression (more open etc).
I also like to check relative vocal levels between songs.
And start with the loudest/biggest tunes first as your peak volume. Acoustic or mellower songs with less thump and transient stuff are easy to make super loud so you don't want to set the bar way higher by starting with then and making them way louder than the rocking tunes can realistically go.
Does that make sense?
I also like to check relative vocal levels between songs.
And start with the loudest/biggest tunes first as your peak volume. Acoustic or mellower songs with less thump and transient stuff are easy to make super loud so you don't want to set the bar way higher by starting with then and making them way louder than the rocking tunes can realistically go.
Does that make sense?
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- Gregg Juke
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The "apparent volume" thing comes into play on the acoustic stuff; less really is more, as a guitar and vocal will always "sound louder" than a full arrangement... Counter-intuitive, but true. I read and heard about it (but didn't believe it) before I experienced it, but when working on an indie compilation a few years back, we got a dose of "Why does that sound so friggin' loud?!?" from a guitars and harmony vox track, compared to the rest of the band tracks on the disc. It definitely is something to be aware of...
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Nocturnal Productions Music Group
Drum! Magazine Contributor
http://MightyNoStars.com
"He's about to learn the most important lesson in the music business-- 'Never trust people in the music business.' "
Having just pseudo-mastered my pseudo album of pseudo songs, I will chime in. I didn't shoot for a specific RMS, but I did compare the level by ear against records with a dynamic range similar to what I'm going for. I used the limiter very lightly. Like just knocking down some stray transients -2dB here and there. Dynamics over volume. I had to fight the impulse to go back and make it louder but I'm committing to it.
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forget RMS. don't even think about it. it means nothing.
the shortcut is just using your ears. they work great for this.
anything with super loud bass (or sustained low mids) is gonna read a high RMS. means nothing as far as loudness. anything that's super bright/lots of high mids is gonna sound loud, regardless of what the meters say.
as noted, a solo guitar/voice tune is gonna sound loud compared to a full band arrangement. you could have the biggest, meanest, most-tattoo'dest, beardiest sludge metal band of all time, and you put their record on next to a recording of an 8 year old girl playing ukelele and singing a love song to her pet unicorn, and the kid will make the metal band look like chumps. if her sister plays a flute solo in the middle, it's really all over.
do what lyman did, compare your stuff with records you want to stand up against. compare BY EAR, ignore what the meters say. listen to them loud and listen quietly.
perceived loudness has way more to do with arrangement, eq, and the sounds themselves than it does with limiting or compression or anything. a great mix of a great tracking job is going to sound louder than a shitty mix of a shitty tracking job, even if you squash the shitty one to death and it reads louder on the meters.
tl;dr meters are useless, ears are good.
the shortcut is just using your ears. they work great for this.
anything with super loud bass (or sustained low mids) is gonna read a high RMS. means nothing as far as loudness. anything that's super bright/lots of high mids is gonna sound loud, regardless of what the meters say.
as noted, a solo guitar/voice tune is gonna sound loud compared to a full band arrangement. you could have the biggest, meanest, most-tattoo'dest, beardiest sludge metal band of all time, and you put their record on next to a recording of an 8 year old girl playing ukelele and singing a love song to her pet unicorn, and the kid will make the metal band look like chumps. if her sister plays a flute solo in the middle, it's really all over.
do what lyman did, compare your stuff with records you want to stand up against. compare BY EAR, ignore what the meters say. listen to them loud and listen quietly.
perceived loudness has way more to do with arrangement, eq, and the sounds themselves than it does with limiting or compression or anything. a great mix of a great tracking job is going to sound louder than a shitty mix of a shitty tracking job, even if you squash the shitty one to death and it reads louder on the meters.
tl;dr meters are useless, ears are good.
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Re: Aiight, let's talk RMS level during psuedo-mastering
also, if this is the case:
then why even worry about "competing"? if it's really My Art And Fuck You (and there's nowt wrong with that), then just make it how it sounds good to you.vvv wrote:First, I have no $ or interest in professional mastering as my songs are just for me and mine and whoever feels like listening - I sell nothing, bill for nothing, and don't wanna - it's my art, start to finish.
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- Nick Sevilla
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MoreSpaceEcho wrote:forget RMS. don't even think about it. it means nothing.
the shortcut is just using your ears. they work great for this.
anything with super loud bass (or sustained low mids) is gonna read a high RMS. means nothing as far as loudness. anything that's super bright/lots of high mids is gonna sound loud, regardless of what the meters say.
as noted, a solo guitar/voice tune is gonna sound loud compared to a full band arrangement. you could have the biggest, meanest, most-tattoo'dest, beardiest sludge metal band of all time, and you put their record on next to a recording of an 8 year old girl playing ukelele and singing a love song to her pet unicorn, and the kid will make the metal band look like chumps. if her sister plays a flute solo in the middle, it's really all over.
do what lyman did, compare your stuff with records you want to stand up against. compare BY EAR, ignore what the meters say. listen to them loud and listen quietly.
perceived loudness has way more to do with arrangement, eq, and the sounds themselves than it does with limiting or compression or anything. a great mix of a great tracking job is going to sound louder than a shitty mix of a shitty tracking job, even if you squash the shitty one to death and it reads louder on the meters.
tl;dr meters are useless, ears are good.
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