Why is gear so expensive and why not more vintage DIY?
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Selling un-assembled kits can be risky. Success is dependent on the skills and knowledge of the assembler. Some folks on these forums can't even use english, much less read an detailed instruction manual. When they fail, it's on the seller to rectify or they get slammed by people that got in over their heads. Lose-lose.
Last edited by Jim Williams on Mon Dec 15, 2008 9:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
Jim Williams
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Amen!joel hamilton wrote:This thread has turned fairly useless.
Please cut out the BS or it will be locked.
Thanks.
I said that I wasn't interested in that kind of immature tit-for-tat. I also said that I wouldn't respond to it. And, I won't.
My interest in this thread at this point is in hoping that the SCA or Hamptone guys will come into it and offer an opinion about wave soldering. For all I know, they don't sell enough pieces to have their PCBs made for them. Maybe they're making them in-house. But, if they are contracting the PCB manufacturing out, and they COULD order them pre-stuffed with components and wave soldered at the same cost as ordering the PCB and components separately, then I'm genuinely curious why they don't.
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I agree. It's a recipe for having a bunch of wonky gear out there with your name on it. That's not good.Jim Williams wrote:Selling un-assembled kits can be risky. Success is dependent on the skills and knowledge of the assembler. Some folks on these forums can't even use english, much less read an detailed instruction manual. When they fail, it's on the seller to rectify or they get slammed by people that got in over their heads. Lose-lose.
So, if the cost to the manufacturer is the same, why not offer as many components pre-stuffed and wave soldered as possible?
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Then you get to a point where the thing is already built, just assemble with some screws and snap a couple of connectors in. They may as well do that themselves and offer a complete product, tested and warrenteed. At that point the costs are not much more to finish the thing themselves instead of saving a couple of bucks risking moronic mistakes from un-qualified buyers.
The best approach is to sell instructions and a blank pcb. The buyer then is responsible for the parts they want, the solder they want, etc. It should be sold as is, no warrentee, no complaints.
The best approach is to sell instructions and a blank pcb. The buyer then is responsible for the parts they want, the solder they want, etc. It should be sold as is, no warrentee, no complaints.
Jim Williams
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I got bored so I wont claim I read everything in this thread.
I think a lot of the price premium has to do with the gear centric business we work in. There are a lot of clients out there that know a handful of brand names. They dont know how to use those brand names or even the model numbers that are significant. They just know that when they go into a studio they want to see Neve, NS10, API, Neumann etc.
In my home studio I have some soundalike gear and some genuine stuff. But then I rarely need to show anyone the inside of my studio. In commercial facilities customers are gonna name check your gear list. Who cares if the Purple 1176 clone is better than the re-issue UA 1176? I know that all other variables being equal, the studio that has several UA 1176's will get more calls. Ditto for real API 512/312 vs SCA or whatever other repro versions.
OTOH I like the idea of building diy mic pre's eq's based on old school designs. It would be awesome if there were some kits for Western Electric or RCA pres. Or a pultec. Heck I made my own pultec once, the trick actually isnt getting the EQ right. Its the line amps! That stuff was passive man!
I think a lot of the price premium has to do with the gear centric business we work in. There are a lot of clients out there that know a handful of brand names. They dont know how to use those brand names or even the model numbers that are significant. They just know that when they go into a studio they want to see Neve, NS10, API, Neumann etc.
In my home studio I have some soundalike gear and some genuine stuff. But then I rarely need to show anyone the inside of my studio. In commercial facilities customers are gonna name check your gear list. Who cares if the Purple 1176 clone is better than the re-issue UA 1176? I know that all other variables being equal, the studio that has several UA 1176's will get more calls. Ditto for real API 512/312 vs SCA or whatever other repro versions.
OTOH I like the idea of building diy mic pre's eq's based on old school designs. It would be awesome if there were some kits for Western Electric or RCA pres. Or a pultec. Heck I made my own pultec once, the trick actually isnt getting the EQ right. Its the line amps! That stuff was passive man!
??????? wrote: "everything sounds best right before it blows up."
Thanks Jim, now we're getting somewhere. The point is not that it can't be done, but that doing so opens its own can of worms.Jim Williams wrote:Then you get to a point where the thing is already built, just assemble with some screws and snap a couple of connectors in. They may as well do that themselves and offer a complete product, tested and warrenteed. At that point the costs are not much more to finish the thing themselves instead of saving a couple of bucks risking moronic mistakes from un-qualified buyers.
I wonder about the number of tech support headaches- you'd be saving yourself a lot of that by having the soldering work already done, but it's true you're then opening the field to people who don't have a clue in the first place. I know you can't idiot proof everything, but in some ways "insert tab A into slot B" type construction would make troubleshooting easier-
"Did you connect the power supply?"
"The what?"
That sort of thing is easier to deal with than finding where somebody put the wrong resistor in R28, but maybe you'd have to deal with more of it which would be its own headache.
Your point about "snap together" kits being one step away from being completed product to sell at a higher price point is well taken. I wonder though about the legal distinctions between "kit" and "product"- UL and all that. Does it make a difference?
I'm not saying that selling kits this way is necessarily a great idea, just that until Jim's post nobody's really come up with any solid reasons why it isn't.
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I said that already, several pages back. Apparently no one wanted to hear it.lobstman wrote:Thanks Jim, now we're getting somewhere. The point is not that it can't be done, but that doing so opens its own can of worms.Jim Williams wrote:Then you get to a point where the thing is already built, just assemble with some screws and snap a couple of connectors in. They may as well do that themselves and offer a complete product, tested and warrenteed. At that point the costs are not much more to finish the thing themselves instead of saving a couple of bucks risking moronic mistakes from un-qualified buyers.
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otoh just because a board is pre stuffed doesnt mean its done.
What with resistors and capacitors having general;y wide variances it is not unusual for the most expertly built circuit to require tweaking to get out of osciallation. using 1% components would avoid this, as would laser trimmed components and surface mount. But I think most of us shy away from surface mount right? I know the surface mount and discrete component versions of a certain multipattern mic sound different.
I personally like populating PCBs. But if it really is the same price...
What with resistors and capacitors having general;y wide variances it is not unusual for the most expertly built circuit to require tweaking to get out of osciallation. using 1% components would avoid this, as would laser trimmed components and surface mount. But I think most of us shy away from surface mount right? I know the surface mount and discrete component versions of a certain multipattern mic sound different.
I personally like populating PCBs. But if it really is the same price...
??????? wrote: "everything sounds best right before it blows up."
God dammit, you did- and on page 4, no less!emrr wrote: I said that already, several pages back. Apparently no one wanted to hear it.
In other words it's possible, but it doesn't seem to work as a business model.emrr wrote: An example. Roger Foote offered a number of Pico 500 series compressors as both full and partial kits. The full kit cost $400. He found his 'free' postmortem assistance to clueless builders ate all his time, and he had product out there that appeared to be of poor quality. He now only sells them completed, and they are only $500. He can build, test, and guarantee the units in almost the same amount of time as he can sort and bag up all the parts for someone else to do it, without the hassle of endless remote troubleshooting eating into his time. Eisen Audio discontinued kits for the same reason.
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Or just offer no tech support.
I dont believe craig anderton did for any of his projects in his book. And you could buy the cards and parts from a 3rd party... valpak? Dont remember, dont recall...
Like I said earlier, I am super interested in Western Electric and RCA stuff. Also Langevin and Quad Eight. You know... I actually have a schematic of a quad eight mic pre left over from when I went to audio school at Leo De Gar Kulka's CRA back in the late 80's. I dont think it mentions particular parts though (transformers, transistors) hmmm....
I dont believe craig anderton did for any of his projects in his book. And you could buy the cards and parts from a 3rd party... valpak? Dont remember, dont recall...
Like I said earlier, I am super interested in Western Electric and RCA stuff. Also Langevin and Quad Eight. You know... I actually have a schematic of a quad eight mic pre left over from when I went to audio school at Leo De Gar Kulka's CRA back in the late 80's. I dont think it mentions particular parts though (transformers, transistors) hmmm....
??????? wrote: "everything sounds best right before it blows up."
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I know. I also said something along the lines of this:emrr wrote:I said that already, several pages back. Apparently no one wanted to hear it.
and, this:Jim Williams wrote:moronic mistakes from un-qualified buyers.
and, I was excoriated for it! looking back, "real DIY" seems pretty mild compared to "don't have a clue".lobstman wrote:you're then opening the field to people who don't have a clue in the first place.
Regardless..... someone with impeccable credentials (Jim Williams) has made an argument that is acceptable to lobstman. Time for me to turn the page on this thread.
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That was long before the internot. Now days if that's tried, the wrath of pissed off bloggers with too much time on their hands can wreck a company's rep, whether deserved or not. "He sold me this crap and I can't fix it, what an a**hole!"calaverasgrandes wrote:Or just offer no tech support.
Who needs that?
I still love to see pcb kits without parts. That leaves the qualified builder creative options to expand upon. I like choices.
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What is your problem with me? Did I fuck your wife or something?subatomic pieces wrote: Regardless..... someone with impeccable credentials (Jim Williams) has made an argument that is acceptable to lobstman. Time for me to turn the page on this thread.
How soon we forget-
subatomic pieces wrote: I said that I wasn't interested in that kind of immature tit-for-tat. I also said that I wouldn't respond to it. And, I won't.
Steve Albini used to like it
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