Is Anyone Using Two Mics For Kick Drum?

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Post by farview » Thu Sep 18, 2008 8:39 am

bradjacob wrote:
thecheat wrote:
bradjacob wrote:With the below scenario, is this observation true?

Scenario
If two kick-tracks are recorded (out of phase). Only to later to be discovered by someone hired to mix said tracks. When played back, the mixer engages TRIM plug and flips the phase-switch. The tracks now sound pretty "ok"... (or better than they were)...

Observation
While tracking out of phase, the mics are canceling each other out - to some degree, thus limiting the amount of captured of low end.

So then, when you flip the switch, and try to boost the low end, it'll never really change it all that much because when it was tracked, the low end signal was reduced and very little made it to tape. So when boosting, not much happens?

Yes/No?
Unless you're bussing to one track, no. Mabye theres a tuning/placement issue.
I am! That's when the EQ doesn't seem to help.
If you are bussing them to one track, you need to get the phase right at the source. Otherwise, you are completely screwed.

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Post by farview » Thu Sep 18, 2008 8:55 am

What I normally do, when I bother to use two mics for kick, is high-pass the outside mic and low pass the inside mic. The idea is to just keep what you like about each mic, then mix to taste. But, I haven't been in the position of haing to buss the mics together on the way to tape in years. I remember having to move the outside mic around a lot until I got the phase working. The hi and low pass filters make it easier because all the phase issues end up in the middle, where you tend to cut a little anyway. Moving the mics around just changes the frequency of the cancelation.

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Post by @?,*???&? » Thu Sep 18, 2008 9:15 am

T-rex wrote:
bradjacob wrote:
@?,*???&? wrote:20Hz, 30Hz, 60Hz, all great frequencies to present that kind of low-end you can stand on.
Actually, looking at the chart, at 40Hz, there is only a 2db drop off. Not a real show-stopper. And freqs of 20 & 30 - are they that important to be hyped?
No. Please don't listen to Jeff.
You should start making records and stop working by day in an office.

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Post by T-rex » Thu Sep 18, 2008 9:39 am

@?,*???&? wrote:
T-rex wrote:
bradjacob wrote:
@?,*???&? wrote:20Hz, 30Hz, 60Hz, all great frequencies to present that kind of low-end you can stand on.
Actually, looking at the chart, at 40Hz, there is only a 2db drop off. Not a real show-stopper. And freqs of 20 & 30 - are they that important to be hyped?
No. Please don't listen to Jeff.
You should start making records and stop working by day in an office.
I will if you will! :D
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Post by iC » Thu Sep 18, 2008 10:47 am

farview wrote:
bradjacob wrote:
thecheat wrote:
bradjacob wrote:With the below scenario, is this observation true?

Scenario
If two kick-tracks ......

...Unless you're bussing to one track, no. Mabye theres a tuning/placement issue.
I am! That's when the EQ doesn't seem to help.
If you are bussing them to one track, you need to get the phase right at the source. Otherwise, you are completely screwed.
Perhaps http://www.tritonedigital.com/product_i ... ucts_id=33
could help if you are ITB?
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Post by T-rex » Thu Sep 18, 2008 11:08 am

Hey thanks for that link. Looks interesting. The IBP is going to be released for UAD, which I was going to demo when it came out but free is always good!
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Post by iC » Thu Sep 18, 2008 11:26 am

check for pluggo induced latency (was this ever fixed?) when mixing with other drum tracks...
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Post by rwc » Thu Sep 18, 2008 12:11 pm

I hate to admit it but I kind of agree with jeff

more dynamics have rolloffs in the bass than condensors

and the subkick "mic" isn't as much a mic as it is a dynamic speaker, being used as a mic.

421s, re20s, SM7bs, 441s, even the d112 has the rolloff. it would probably be sooner but since the low end boost is in place it moves the rolloff back, but it is present. stuff like the 4047 doesn't roll off even to the bitter end(20 hz and beyond). the average condensors have less likelihood of rolling off than the average dynamic.

that being said I have never thought something like the e602 lacked bottom end, and even if the mic I was using for kick did lack bottom end below 40 hz, I have to question if that rolloff might or might not be the best thing for the mix. Do I want a plump 20 hz on a close mic'd kick? Do I hear a plump 20 hz when I stand 9' away from the drums in the room as the drummer plays?

Aesthetics.

I find something like an e602 and a room mic of some sort works great. If I do use 2 mics specifically for the kick, which I rarely do cause the close mic + room mics picks up all the kick character I could ever want, I prefer something like a 4047 + e602. 2 mics works better for me than a subkick everytime IMO. But I really see little need in using 2 mics on the kick, because both mics are picking up the same general sound of, mic inside or near kick. I'd much rather have a mic away, and a mic close, than two mics next to each other or in near proximity to the kick. and incase the real speakers break it helps to have both NS10s in the control room. :D
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Post by T-rex » Thu Sep 18, 2008 12:58 pm

rwc wrote:

that being said I have never thought something like the e602 lacked bottom end, and even if the mic I was using for kick did lack bottom end below 40 hz, I have to question if that rolloff might or might not be the best thing for the mix. Do I want a plump 20 hz on a close mic'd kick? Do I hear a plump 20 hz when I stand 9' away from the drums in the room as the drummer plays?
This is what I am saying. I personally love my Mouse on outside of kick duties. But saying that you are shooting yourself in the foot by recording a BD with a D12 seems a little crazy. Unless this is rap or dance music, the BD is going to be predominantly playing above 50 hz and probably between 63 and 80 hz or even higher. The roll off on dynamics is generally taking care of the sub bass crap that 99% of systems can't reproduce and the high end systems generally hav 25 or 30 hz subsonic filters to filter out. Of course its there, unless you filter it. But how much 25 hz do you regularly use on BD in a mix?
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Post by chris harris » Thu Sep 18, 2008 1:51 pm

with a pair of 414's about 6' in front of the bass drum and about 1.5' off the ground, I get such a great representation of the whole kit (bass drum included) that I could legitimately get away with no mic on the kick drum. I'd say I usually get a good 80% of the sound of the bass drum from these room mics.

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Post by rwc » Thu Sep 18, 2008 5:11 pm

I used an AT4050 as a room mic, low, 4.5' in front of the kit once and I forgot to have the kick drum mic plugged in and I thought it was.

I felt like a fucking moron, but it says something for that mic in that position, that I didn't even think to check the kick mic until I saw afterward, the flat waveform.. :oops:

The 4050 is similar to the 414 so I am not surprised that worked for you.
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Post by MoreSpaceEcho » Fri Sep 19, 2008 7:15 am

did you guys have those mics in omni or cardioid? just curious. i usually have earthworks omnis on the floor about 6' out, lined up with the kick drum legs, and i get a lot of the kick sound from those mics...

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Post by chris harris » Fri Sep 19, 2008 8:02 am

I use cardioid for those mics.

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Post by vorian » Fri Sep 19, 2008 8:29 am

subatomic pieces wrote:I use cardioid for those mics.
What technique are you using? Spaced pair? XY?

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Post by chris harris » Fri Sep 19, 2008 8:40 am

spaced, but narrow. about 2' apart.

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